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You were doing pretty well until then. IF it survived. IF it didn't then the pain was pointless. And if a lot of animals die in a rockslide it's pointless. They haven't learned anything. And if a lot of poeople die in a natural disaster, it's pointless. What does that teach us? That there's nobody there but us chickens, is what.
No, it wasn't pointless. The pain meant that animal made a huge mistake that it just was not going to learn from for the next time. Why is peoples death in natural disasters pointless? I think it teaches us something; don't get into that natural disaster. Also, a person is not going to be judged on how they die, but how they lived. But because of sin we're all going to have to die once and some of us who are bad are going to have to die twice.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
It is far from irrelevant. If our creation was not by God then he has no business coming and interefering. So I'm assuming you suppose we and animals were made by God. What have animals done to annoy God? Sin? I'm not even talking about Adam's fall in which animals did not share, so they should live forever. Maybe you don't believe Genesis, though I'd bet heavily that you do. But animals have done only what is in their nature. Only what they were MADE like. So of course they are innocent.
Our creation was from God, so he can interfere. Animals who die sudden deaths did not anoy God. Why do you keep doing this thinking that God is involved in every iota of what happens on this creation of his. He knows its happening, but death is a result of man's sin. And yes, animals did share in Adams fall. Why? because God gave all of creation to man. When man fell, everything he owned fell too. If you don't pay your bills, they are going to forclose on your house. And all those cats of yours will end up on the street as a direct result of your dilinquincy. Of course the cats didn't do a thing to deserve that too!
Back to innocent! Innocence does not protect you from pain. Innocence is not a shield.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Because we are supposed to have a moral code from God. It is supposed to teach us that you don't inflict harm for no good reason. You don't do overkill to teach people a lesson. You don't break an animal's back with a rock just to teach it to keep away from loose rocks. The relevance is that we observe these things and wonder 'Why is God letting this happen?'. That it is is to teach us something does not stack up. It looks much more like it's just bad luck and no god is in charge.
We were given commandments from God so that we might live moral lives (rather righteous lives, that is in right-standing with God). I don't remember the "thou shalt not inflict harm for no good reason" law from God. Let's think in the big ten?...No. In the 613?....No! No such law. Pain sucks. But there is no law about not inflicting it on other creatures. So, I am not going to hell for burning all those ants with the magnifying glass!
AREQUIPA, I think the answer is that the earth is real. There are real and desasterous effect that can happen to you if you prepare and protect yourself and even if you don't. So, the best thing is to prepare your relationship with God before you have to meet him on the other side. It is written: "It is appointed unto man once to die and then the Judgement." and "Absent from the body, present with the Lord".
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
The moral of the story is that if it all looks like it's just happening ...trees or rocks fall because of...random factors, really. It probably just is. And it's not just falling rocks and trees - that's just minimising the problem so as to dismiss it. There's also volcanoes, floods, earthquakes and that's natural stuff a god could presumably do something about. There's also wars and new religions all of which claim to be the right one and none can point to such success that proves that any one god is behind it.
The thing is that God can do something about all these events, but then what fun would that be? If everytime you tripped God sent an angel to catch you, then you would feel frustrated. You wouldn't be able to live you life. To have things happen and have concequences. That is a great part of freedom. For the chance to have amazing experiences and also some bad ones.
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Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
The moral of the story is that, taken as a whole, the Problem of evil looks like there just isn't a God.
The moral of the Story is that the world is real. There are real concequences to your actions, and to storms and floods and volcanoes. Trees do fall, so what. Sometime humans and animals feel pain without a reason. So what, get over it. This is life! There is evil in this world. Which means that if there is a God he has made a way that we can come out of this evil. And he has through his Son, Jesus Christ. God has made a way that we can no longer be bound by sin. Through Jesus we see that yes things can hurt in this world, but we can help those in need. And better yet we can tell them of Jesus Christ. Jesus is God's way that he sent to save us from sin if we accept him. Then we can spend eternity with God where there is no pain and God will wipe away all our tears.
It should be obvious that I don't need a reason for whatever befalls us or any other animal.SH** happens.
However, when a kind and loving god is being promoted, not just death, but, if you read my OP, a prolonged suffering (of a supposedly sinless animal)is what I see as inconsistant with such a god
You know, I've decided that I really must be a slow learner. I must have responded to this question a dozen times over the years. Every time I do, I end up wishing I hadn't wasted my time. But I keep getting suckered into responding. On the other hand, I suspect that when you asked the question, you pretty much knew what to expect in the way of answers. Maybe you just needed to get your hatred for the God you don't believe in anyway off your chest.
No, it wasn't pointless. The pain meant that animal made a huge mistake that it just was not going to learn from for the next time.
Not going to learn from = pointless.
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Why is peoples death in natural disasters pointless? I think it teaches us something; don't get into that natural disaster.
So, natural disasters exist for the sole reason to teach us to avoid natural disasters?
So, if natural disasters didn't occur, we wouldn't need to know to avoid them, and there would be no 'purpose' for them in the first place. How are human deaths in natural disasters not pointless then?
I'm glad you don't try to explain it away with a bunch of bull, Mystic.
Also that you actually understand the question.
It is why I ask this particular question.
As you also seem to admit, even dominion has no point when the tree falls from, say decay, lightning, etc and not by our actions
I'm glad you don't try to explain it away with a bunch of bull, Mystic.
Also that you actually understand the question.
It is why I ask this particular question.
As you also seem to admit, even dominion has no point when the tree falls from, say decay, lightning, etc and not by our actions
If I had been asked that question, I would have replied that it was sheer speculation to which there is no certain answer. God cannot be blamed for POTENTIAL disasters.
Then I would have asked for a specific case on which to work.
I'm glad you don't try to explain it away with a bunch of bull, Mystic.
Also that you actually understand the question.
It is why I ask this particular question.
As you also seem to admit, even dominion has no point when the tree falls from, say decay, lightning, etc and not by our actions
If you are still out there old_cold . . . I have been seriously pressed to address this question given what I experience as the reality of God. I have expanded my analogy to cellular life to impose some rationale on it. We ourselves are a mini universe of billions and billions of cells and other organisms in a complex organized cycle of life and death that is ultimately responsible for our development of consciousness energy. There are myriad life/death occurrences within this complex of "us" that would seem incomprehensible (if they were conscious) to the individual cellular lifeforms and organisms that comprise "us." My best explanation is an expansion of that scenario out to the infinity of God with this universe, "us" and all that is occurring on macro and micro scales within it as His incomprehensible "cellular" life processes. Sorry . . . that is the best I could come up with.
If you are still out there old_cold . . . I have been seriously pressed to address this question given what I experience as the reality of God. I have expanded my analogy to cellular life to impose some rationale on it. We ourselves are a mini universe of billions and billions of cells and other organisms in a complex organized cycle of life and death that is ultimately responsible for our development of consciousness energy. There are myriad life/death occurrences within this complex of "us" that would seem incomprehensible (if they were conscious) to the individual cellular lifeforms and organisms that comprise "us." My best explanation is an expansion of that scenario out to the infinity of God with this universe, "us" and all that is occurring on macro and micro scales within it as His incomprehensible "cellular" life processes. Sorry . . . that is the best I could come up with.
Great analogy. I was just reading a book today that explains the same analogy. Would rep you if I could.
a tree felt pain for being cut down and made into part of a church.
Actually, I don't think the christians care if a tree feels pain or a lamb is terrified just before it is sacrificed, or all those turkeys that are killed for a christian thanks giving thing. I suspect that their love of eating and feeling superior is what the christians are referring to when they claim that (Their god is the god of love) Cause they certainly seem to love that false sense of superiority.
I have spent decades trying to reconcile this issue old_cold. There is no acceptable answer to me. I know that there is a big difference between human "suffering" and just physical pain . . . so animals do not "suffer" (in the way that we do). But the physical pain itself (even though it ameliorates eventually) is still unacceptable to me. I am unable to defend it on any grounds . . . other than that WE have been given Dominion over the earth and all creatures on it.
The light with the darkness, life with death, the right with the left are brothers one to another. It is not possible for them to be separated from one another. Because of this, neither are the good good, nor are the evils evil, nor is the life a life, nor is death a death. Therefore each individual shall be resolved into his origin from the beginning. (Gospel of Philip Verse 9)
Mystic, we were given dominion over all, but we are not exempt from life. If we did not share tragedy, death, pain with other life we would not have respect for it. For how can we respect that which we don't comprehend?
The world we know is based on change. Everything changes constantly. Being prepared is each of our jobs, and the world we live in must be watched carefully lest we be sucked away by a Tsunami or flood or prairie fire.....the catastrophes we face do not discriminate. they apply to all, the wise the dumb, the strong the weak, the old the young, animals, plants......all are subject to the same implacable change. the Creator favored us with dominion, and responsibility, but that does not put us above any other of the creation.
Since man wasn't there to suffer from having to witness, maybe God has it arranged so that the animal doesn't feel pain or suffer.
That answer is hardly worthy of consideration IMO. Since every animal has felt pain from such an event when observed, why would God only cause it not to suffer when no one is looking?
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