Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Why argue for them when you know they are wrong? Playing "devil's advocate" is all well and good, on occasion and briefly, but it can be taken too far. Lots of people are dopes, we know that!
Why argue for them when you know they are wrong? Playing "devil's advocate" is all well and good, on occasion and briefly, but it can be taken too far. Lots of people are dopes, we know that!
Who, me?
Well... because human beliefs (even wrong ones) are just as important as actual truths, being that beliefs lead to real world actions, while hard truths are less... um... "dynamic" when it comes to anticipitating the directions and results of human behavior.
If we see through multiple perspectives, we see things that we might otherwise miss, and come to a greater understanding of the whole.
This is also why I say every atheist should read and understand the bible (and other religious texts), even though it seems pointless at first. People believe it is true, so that makes it important and valid to real life...even if it isn't the "gospel truth".
I think real knowledge ("actual truths") can be just as "dynamic" as beliefs, and the results can be at least as easy to predict. After all, facts don't change along the way unless they were incorrect. Certainly, playing "devil's advocate" can be enjoyable. It's just that if taken too far, people may get the idea that you actually believe the stuff you are saying!
But I certainly agree with you about knowledge of The Bible and of the religion one is debating a believer about. One has to understand it in order to argue about it.
Some years ago I had the time to waste so let a door knocker entertain me for awhile.
We ended up sparring in a friendly enough manner until I presented her with a question that I said, if she could answer, I would listen to her furthur.
Knowing that pain and suffering of man is excused with several reasons, I asked why God would allow/cause some innocent animal , unknown to and unseen by humans, to have, for instance, a tree fall on it,not kill it right away and lay, perhaps for minutes,hours or even days, in agony.
After several visits and after using up and casting off 'original sin' and 'sins of the father',she was stymied so passed it off to another fellow she declared better versed.
(I was finally given an explanation I have to admit couldn't factually counter. ...it was a stretch but not arguable)
Can any of you believers give even the thinnest palatable reason for this?
He allows it because he wants it. He is the creator and can do with creation what he wants.
If you want to trump a JW, all you have to do is ask the following questions:
1) The JW's Bible clearly instructs them to avoid blood. This is why JW's do not accept blood transfusions. However, they do accept blood transfusions in part.
Relevant verses:
Quote:
You must not eat the blood of any sort of flesh. (Leviticus 17:13, 14)
Quote:
Only flesh with its soul [or, life]—its blood—you must not eat. (Genesis 1:29; 9:3, 4)
Quote:
The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled [leaving the blood in the meat] and from fornication. (Acts 15:28, 29; 21:25)
They specify that the only proper usage for blood is animal sacrifice.
Quote:
The soul [or, life] of the flesh is in the blood, and I myself have put it upon the altar for you to make atonement for your souls, because it is the blood that makes atonement.”(Leviticus 17:11)
Quote:
I am clean from the blood of all men, for I have not held back from telling you all the counsel of God. (Acts 20:26, 27)
Quote:
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect -- if that were possible (Matt. 24:24).
It is reminding Jehovah's Witnesses that there are "circumstances" [note: plural] when a Witness may have his own blood transfused back into him, and viewed by the Watchtower's Governing Body as "unobjectionable." (The Watchtower of August 1, 1995, p. 30)
So with that said, why have they gone back and forth between accepting and refusing blood transfusions? Isn't that a bit contradictory?
2) The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicted the coming of Armageddon, or in other words, the end of the world for everyone but JW's, numerous times in the 20th century. Needless to say, all of these predictions were false, given the fact that we're all still here.
Relevant verses:
Quote:
If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:22)
It's worth noting that the JW's believe that the Watchtower can prophesies, as stated below:
Quote:
So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?...This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses...Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1972, p. 197
And here is just a long list of the quotes regarding the false prophecies, listed by date:
Quote:
1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874," (Studies in the Scriptures, vol. 4, p. 621).
1899 "...the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty' (Revelation 16:14), which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced," (The Time Is at Hand, 1908 edition, p. 101).
1916 "The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873," (The Time Is at Hand, forward, p. ii).
1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection," (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89).
1922 "The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914," (Watchtower, Sept. 1, 1922, p. 262).
1923 "Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge," (Watchtower, Apr. 1, 1923, p. 106).
1925 "The year 1925 is here. With great expectation Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished. It may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned about what may transpire this year," (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1925, p. 3).
1925 "It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work," (Watchtower, Sept., 1925, p. 262).
1926 "Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything," (Watchtower, p. 232).
1931 "There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time...and they also learned to quit fixing dates," (Vindication, p. 338).
1941 "Receiving the gift, the marching children clasped it to them, not a toy or plaything for idle pleasure, but the Lord's provided instrument for most effective work in the remaining months before Armageddon," (Watchtower, Sept. 15, 1941, p. 288).
1968 "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them," (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968).
1968 "Why are you looking forward to 1975?" (Watchtower, Aug. 15, 1968, p. 494).
So why, when JW's believe that the Watchtower acts as their Prophet, considers false prophecies to be the result of false prophets, and yet has had their own "prophet" make false prophecies, do they continue to believe in the Watchtower as their Prophet?
If you want to trump a JW, all you have to do is ask the following questions:
1) The JW's Bible clearly instructs them to avoid blood. This is why JW's do not accept blood transfusions. However, they do accept blood transfusions in part.
Relevant verses:
They specify that the only proper usage for blood is animal sacrifice.
So with that said, why have they gone back and forth between accepting and refusing blood transfusions? Isn't that a bit contradictory?
2) The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society predicted the coming of Armageddon, or in other words, the end of the world for everyone but JW's, numerous times in the 20th century. Needless to say, all of these predictions were false, given the fact that we're all still here.
Relevant verses:
It's worth noting that the JW's believe that the Watchtower can prophesies, as stated below:
And here is just a long list of the quotes regarding the false prophecies, listed by date:
So why, when JW's believe that the Watchtower acts as their Prophet, considers false prophecies to be the result of false prophets, and yet has had their own "prophet" make false prophecies, do they continue to believe in the Watchtower as their Prophet?
I have to admit that the Bible text and false prophets and exhortations not to listen to 'Lo here' and 'lo there' would certainly seem to apply to the JW's. It is a remarkable testimony to the capacity for self - deception of the believers that the Jw's completely ignore that Biblical finger points directly at them, just as the Pharisaical finger points at many Christians who claim to be believers but love money, ignore the timber beam in their eyes, love the principal seats, make a public exhibition of their faith and strain at theological gnats.
Rafius demanded I send my other card in.....do I have to re-apply?
Yes you do. Please send a cheque for $100 and I will return your card, valid for a further 6 months on condition that you don't get 'trumped' by JWs again.
The JWs do not bother me anymore than any other theist.
Basically all the same, just different minituae to disagree with.
The basic point still is what would the explanation be for any so-called loving god to allow for the pain and suffering of animals
My door knockers solution was that they don't suffer, letting god off the hook.
Haven't yet read a better one yet that lets god keep the description of loving.
The JWs do not bother me anymore than any other theist.
Basically all the same, just different minituae to disagree with.
The basic point still is what would the explanation be for any so-called loving god to allow for the pain and suffering of animals
My door knockers solution was that they don't suffer, letting god off the hook.
Haven't yet read a better one yet that lets god keep the description of loving.
I agree. It beats 'Animals have no souls and don't matter' or 'God knows what he's doing'. But it still is only the best of a terribly bad bunch of excuses.
Yes you do. Please send a cheque for $100 and I will return your card, valid for a further 6 months on condition that you don't get 'trumped' by JWs again.
A request has been sent to my former church for a refund of all collection plate donations on the basis of false pretenses.
As soon as it is received I'll send you that check.
Last edited by old_cold; 08-07-2010 at 07:02 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
