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The bible not against.... Today there are tomatoes with human genes from a liver. In the bible drink a and eat a body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pamelaBeurman
What????????????????
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur
What have you been READING? You need to stop! No genetically modified tomatoes are being grown commercially in North America or in Europe....Not since 1998.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan
What authors?
The Torah, otherwise known as the Bible, was the direct word of the Almighty, and the Almighty would definitely have a complete knowledge of genetics.
Not by what you assert! If they were worried about cattle crossing with sheep, how could they have known anything? The facts about genetics has only just arisen in the past 50 years or so, the more important of it in the last 5 years! In very sophisticated science labs oddly not mentioned in ancient Jurusalem!
As well, don't they also adamantly assert that their God "Insta-Poofed" all of it into creation one week ? That's not only improbable, but technically impossible, and wildly implausible, and also flies in the face of literally massive mounds and heaps of facts, evidence and predictable outcomes in geology, DNA genome mapping, astronomy, paleontology, archeology, ever-more sophisticated and accurate dating methods, accurate [but dissonant with Christian...) historic writings from China, Japan and others, and dozens of other disciplines and sources.
BTW, God didn't author the Torah or Qu'Ran. The physical hand of minions and acolytes did this, and of course, they "filtered" it through what they thought of those stories, what they felt was important, and tinted by their own superstitious and mystical fears. and their interpretation of lightning, floods and earthquakes. WE KNOW what they wrote of those, and now we know otherwise. Don't we/you?
Fact: putting vastly over-reaching assumptions aside for a moment, there's absolutely no credible biblical references to genetics, as the absolutely infallible basis for life and genetics variability or of genetic science itself (hell, of any science as a means to answering questions of Mother Nature) and in fact Evolution).
Given the non-existence of a formal Q&A system (i.e.: science) with peer review and worldwide access (the Internet, which was first created by the military and then adopted by scientists to enable world-wide communication on studies and results... it was not divinely created by a God who wanted us to create FaceBook...), none of what allows us to live on this planet now would be here. but we've also created a monster in the use of those facts, the interpretation of information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan
There are different forms of genetic engineering: those that "improve the breed" by breeding those animals or plants that have, what are deemed, superior characteristics, and those that transplant genetic material from one species to another species. It is the latter type of genetic engineering that may not be Biblically permitted (i.e., kosher).
Are we being highly selective in our interpretation of which aspects are good, which fit the biblical entreaties and which are, ethically or religiously "bad"? As in: if it suports a secular perspective, it MUST be biased and bad? Do you not see the rather "yellow" light this places your opinions in?
Fact: Religion is, by definition, managed by the paradigm it wishes to support, while true science is not afraid of, nor shirks from, any answer or any result. "Facts is facts, man!"
Only those with a prior agenda, such as the few so-called Christian Scientists, will apply a high bias to the observed results in any study. Even if a study were designed properly and completed without bias, the conclusions do allow for the full application of one's biases. Or not, in the case of true pure science. Even given the fallibilities of each man, the peer review it requires places all true scientific studies under the bright light of literally thousands of people who all read it critically. Not so under Christianity; if it "fits" the paradigm, it's "in". So we have all those so-called religious miracles "supported" by so-called Christian science experts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan
The more productive people there are, the better off we all are.
We improve per acre yields of plants and the rate of weight gain for animals, which is a good thing as it allows us all to have better food at cheaper prices.
The larger picture includes our human over-population problem which is, at it's core, the most urgent one we face. As an environmental professional I can assure you the numbers support this:
As our population grows and we require ever more food, water, uprooted natural areas for housing, transportation and crop production, we rapidly ruin the existing ecology. We already have, demonstrably and with hugely negative consequences to the once-pristine and balanced world. It arrived in a state of measured balance through literally billions of years of testing, trial and error, which of course included DNA-mutation based evolution for the best "fit".
Then, along comes us with our evolved ability to think about, and act on, our future. We've punctuated our presence here by a massive presence and exponentially growing effect on our world, to it's sad and sorry end.
As we modify crops and till in ever more ground, we don't notice that we've done this, almost always, to the best bottom lands, the ones with great biodiversity, and usually, a nice stream or river flowing through it. "Great bottom land for our new farm, Flo! Praise God!!" said the pioneer, fitting up the horse to his plough. Now, John Deere has provided a rather more effective means...
Meantime, we eradicate the homeland and food and security source for countless other "unimportant" organisms. Tough for them, huh? I mean, God said "We shall have dominion over the beasts... blah blah blah." Typical selfish human arrogance, but in the global case, it will most certainly be our downfall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan
Global Warming is a secular-progressive-liberal Leftist myth.
Over-population is a secular-progressive-liberal Leftist myth.
Yup. You've certainly been listening to Rush, I can tell....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan
Typical secular-progressive-liberal Leftist reply when they do not have facts to back their assertions.
If mockery fails, then they next turn to ad hominem attacks.
Nah, we just try to see past the gross glossing-over that characterizes the Christian right Wing nuttos. Why not throw in a little humor?
No over-population? To actually make that statement is to truly show your vast ignorance, both technically and culturally. You really should go back to school for a while and at least audit a course on basic human population dynamics and global economics and crop production and diminishing resources.
You probably aren't aware of the problems we are now facing with garbage disposal here in the US, where at least the problem gets reported. Hows about in India or China or the Pacific Island countries, or Africa, where they all just take it out into the ocean and drop it in. And we have no idea. Oh I know; Rush () says God will take care of all the styrofoam, but Rush is a technical moron. Oh, plus he knows his audience and their effect on his personal bottom line. And his cloistered, filtered life on his property in Flaw-dah! Easy for his ilk to make stupid pronouncements from "the idiot pulpit".
Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold
Unlike the high birth rates in 3rd world countries, maybe Americans relate more kids to having less money
"Recession not only led to decline in the gross domestic product and like the NYSE and NASADQ, but also the birth rate in the United States.
Welllllll...true. But it's mostly been proven to be tightly tied to education levels, the selfishness of yuppy lifestyles and our easy standards of living. We're not so focused on having massive families to support us when we get older. We aren't admonished by our Catholic Church to produce more little future tithers. We don't need to put our kids to work out in the field.
As one would expect, and as has been well documented: the less educated and poorer the population, the higher their illiterate dependence on organized religion to provide it's highly biased perspective and equally biased "education", mostly of the fear-mongering variety. Can't argue that one; it's easily proven! Just look at the growth of Islam in the world's poorest but growing populations. This is hardly a "plus"...
Instead, we thinking Westerners, armored up with science and facts, look to the future and can now easily predict what the evidence provides for us, Of course, if it were entirely up to the Church (as in the glorious days of the [sob...] Spanish Inquisition, which, sadly for The Church, ended altogether too early [deep sob...]...) we'd still be in The Dark Ages.
Genetic engineering is an example of proven true facts (DNA and Evolution) being possibly ill-applied by the ever-curious but often short-sighted mind of man. As in the constant drumbeat against Eugenics as somehow being directly related to Evolution's truths. but when it provides a cure for diabetes or cancer or arthritis or whatever, we may well find you in the line (but with your sunglasses on to hide your identity...) for those exacting and amazing bits of scientific knowledge. Or are you willing to stick to your personal dogma and beliefs and sign off of all of science's rewards? It's stunningly amazing how selective the religious are when it comes to science's obvious advances....
To disparage all science simply because it is an effective and logical process for answering questions is to demonstrate a considerable level of directed ignorance. To hide behind God's written word and to claim there's no effect of mankind's staggering growth on this planet? How amazingly short-sighted and ill-educated.
To blithely say you can keep an endlessly growing number of chickens in a fixed-size coop? Or of quick-breeding rats in a small maze? And to then say the resulting demands for resources will just be provided by God? Amazingly short-sighted. Oh, and tacitly stupid on it's face.
Well, I think I should cut my short treatise here and go to have my coffee. Genetically modified no doubt, to enhance it's flavor... God save me!
(Note to mod: my apologies for drifting off just a bit... the "odd" responses by some of the faithful here, and their clear lack of understanding of genetics and science, just hit my hot buttons...)
I'm a lot more worried about the faithful mucking about with my life than I am with eating food that has been genetically modified. Then again, I had my kids vaccinated, let them play in the dirt and didn't use antibacterials, and I don't see conspiracies lurking at every step of the way either.
According to some people, I should have died of cancer decades ago, and my kids should be deformed/mutated and be autistic from their vaccines.
So now you're sidestepping your own criteria?
First you demand that I should back up my assertions and when I ask the same of you, you simply refuse because…?
You can't?
If we didn't have genetically modified food more than half the world would starve to death....Is that what you are aiming for?
That isn't even true and it's so far off base it isn't even funny.
The World grows enough food to feed a population 8 times the current population.
The problem is that 100% of the food grown is not used for food.
For example, sub-Saharan Africa was a net exporter of food, until US and British multi-national corporations used the military threat of their respective countries to strong arm the governments and coerce those countries into single cash-crops like chocolate, coffee and sugar cane.
The beautifully terraced mountain sides in Ghana, Senegal, Ivory Coast and elsewhere that used to grow rice to feed people and export for sale on the world market to generate revenues for those countries now grow coffee beans so Ahmuricans can have a Starsux Coffee Shop every 50 feet because their too fat and lazy to drive their SUVs more than that distance to go to another Starsux.
Millions of tons of soy beans are used for bio-diesel instead of food.
In the US, millions of tons of corn are used for ethanol as a gasoline additive instead of food, and millions of tons more are used to produce corn syrup and corn oil for high fructose corn syrup to put in the 1,000s of different beverages Ahmuricans drink so they can claim they have a higher standard of living.
T
In the US, millions of tons of corn are used for ethanol as a gasoline additive instead of food, and millions of tons more are used to produce corn syrup and corn oil for high fructose corn syrup to put in the 1,000s of different beverages Ahmuricans drink so they can claim they have a higher standard of living.
Ethanol is made from field corn. When was the last time you saw field corn for sale in your grocery store or farmer's market? Field corn is not human food, it is animal food or raw materials for fuel.
And where do you get the connection between HFCS and Americans claiming "they have a higher standard of living" because of it? That's just freaky off the wall stuff.
Not by what you assert! If they were worried about cattle crossing with sheep, how could they have known anything? The facts about genetics has only just arisen in the past 50 years or so, the more important of it in the last 5 years! In very sophisticated science labs oddly not mentioned in ancient Jurusalem!
As well, don't they also adamantly assert that their God "Insta-Poofed" all of it into creation one week ? That's not only improbable, but technically impossible, and wildly implausible, and also flies in the face of literally massive mounds and heaps of facts, evidence and predictable outcomes in geology, DNA genome mapping, astronomy, paleontology, archeology, ever-more sophisticated and accurate dating methods, accurate [but dissonant with Christian...) historic writings from China, Japan and others, and dozens of other disciplines and sources.
BTW, God didn't author the Torah or Qu'Ran. The physical hand of minions and acolytes did this, and of course, they "filtered" it through what they thought of those stories, what they felt was important, and tinted by their own superstitious and mystical fears. and their interpretation of lightning, floods and earthquakes. WE KNOW what they wrote of those, and now we know otherwise. Don't we/you?
Fact: putting vastly over-reaching assumptions aside for a moment, there's absolutely no credible biblical references to genetics, as the absolutely infallible basis for life and genetics variability or of genetic science itself (hell, of any science as a means to answering questions of Mother Nature) and in fact Evolution).
Given the non-existence of a formal Q&A system (i.e.: science) with peer review and worldwide access (the Internet, which was first created by the military and then adopted by scientists to enable world-wide communication on studies and results... it was not divinely created by a God who wanted us to create FaceBook...), none of what allows us to live on this planet now would be here. but we've also created a monster in the use of those facts, the interpretation of information.
Are we being highly selective in our interpretation of which aspects are good, which fit the biblical entreaties and which are, ethically or religiously "bad"? As in: if it suports a secular perspective, it MUST be biased and bad? Do you not see the rather "yellow" light this places your opinions in?
Fact: Religion is, by definition, managed by the paradigm it wishes to support, while true science is not afraid of, nor shirks from, any answer or any result. "Facts is facts, man!"
Only those with a prior agenda, such as the few so-called Christian Scientists, will apply a high bias to the observed results in any study. Even if a study were designed properly and completed without bias, the conclusions do allow for the full application of one's biases. Or not, in the case of true pure science. Even given the fallibilities of each man, the peer review it requires places all true scientific studies under the bright light of literally thousands of people who all read it critically. Not so under Christianity; if it "fits" the paradigm, it's "in". So we have all those so-called religious miracles "supported" by so-called Christian science experts.
The larger picture includes our human over-population problem which is, at it's core, the most urgent one we face. As an environmental professional I can assure you the numbers support this:
As our population grows and we require ever more food, water, uprooted natural areas for housing, transportation and crop production, we rapidly ruin the existing ecology. We already have, demonstrably and with hugely negative consequences to the once-pristine and balanced world. It arrived in a state of measured balance through literally billions of years of testing, trial and error, which of course included DNA-mutation based evolution for the best "fit".
Then, along comes us with our evolved ability to think about, and act on, our future. We've punctuated our presence here by a massive presence and exponentially growing effect on our world, to it's sad and sorry end.
As we modify crops and till in ever more ground, we don't notice that we've done this, almost always, to the best bottom lands, the ones with great biodiversity, and usually, a nice stream or river flowing through it. "Great bottom land for our new farm, Flo! Praise God!!" said the pioneer, fitting up the horse to his plough. Now, John Deere has provided a rather more effective means...
Meantime, we eradicate the homeland and food and security source for countless other "unimportant" organisms. Tough for them, huh? I mean, God said "We shall have dominion over the beasts... blah blah blah." Typical selfish human arrogance, but in the global case, it will most certainly be our downfall.
Yup. You've certainly been listening to Rush, I can tell....
Nah, we just try to see past the gross glossing-over that characterizes the Christian right Wing nuttos. Why not throw in a little humor?
No over-population? To actually make that statement is to truly show your vast ignorance, both technically and culturally. You really should go back to school for a while and at least audit a course on basic human population dynamics and global economics and crop production and diminishing resources.
You probably aren't aware of the problems we are now facing with garbage disposal here in the US, where at least the problem gets reported. Hows about in India or China or the Pacific Island countries, or Africa, where they all just take it out into the ocean and drop it in. And we have no idea. Oh I know; Rush () says God will take care of all the styrofoam, but Rush is a technical moron. Oh, plus he knows his audience and their effect on his personal bottom line. And his cloistered, filtered life on his property in Flaw-dah! Easy for his ilk to make stupid pronouncements from "the idiot pulpit".
Welllllll...true. But it's mostly been proven to be tightly tied to education levels, the selfishness of yuppy lifestyles and our easy standards of living. We're not so focused on having massive families to support us when we get older. We aren't admonished by our Catholic Church to produce more little future tithers. We don't need to put our kids to work out in the field.
As one would expect, and as has been well documented: the less educated and poorer the population, the higher their illiterate dependence on organized religion to provide it's highly biased perspective and equally biased "education", mostly of the fear-mongering variety. Can't argue that one; it's easily proven! Just look at the growth of Islam in the world's poorest but growing populations. This is hardly a "plus"...
Instead, we thinking Westerners, armored up with science and facts, look to the future and can now easily predict what the evidence provides for us, Of course, if it were entirely up to the Church (as in the glorious days of the [sob...] Spanish Inquisition, which, sadly for The Church, ended altogether too early [deep sob...]...) we'd still be in The Dark Ages.
Genetic engineering is an example of proven true facts (DNA and Evolution) being possibly ill-applied by the ever-curious but often short-sighted mind of man. As in the constant drumbeat against Eugenics as somehow being directly related to Evolution's truths. but when it provides a cure for diabetes or cancer or arthritis or whatever, we may well find you in the line (but with your sunglasses on to hide your identity...) for those exacting and amazing bits of scientific knowledge. Or are you willing to stick to your personal dogma and beliefs and sign off of all of science's rewards? It's stunningly amazing how selective the religious are when it comes to science's obvious advances....
To disparage all science simply because it is an effective and logical process for answering questions is to demonstrate a considerable level of directed ignorance. To hide behind God's written word and to claim there's no effect of mankind's staggering growth on this planet? How amazingly short-sighted and ill-educated.
To blithely say you can keep an endlessly growing number of chickens in a fixed-size coop? Or of quick-breeding rats in a small maze? And to then say the resulting demands for resources will just be provided by God? Amazingly short-sighted. Oh, and tacitly stupid on it's face.
Well, I think I should cut my short treatise here and go to have my coffee. Genetically modified no doubt, to enhance it's flavor... God save me!
(Note to mod: my apologies for drifting off just a bit... the "odd" responses by some of the faithful here, and their clear lack of understanding of genetics and science, just hit my hot buttons...)
Thank you for the voice of reason. At best,churches deal in propaganda designed to benefit them and few others. Precisely why I gave up on organized religion years ago. Besides, I don't remember anything in the Bible saying that church was the only portal to heaven.
BTW, did anyone figure out what Eloy was trying to say?
Not by what you assert! If they were worried about cattle crossing with sheep, how could they have known anything? The facts about genetics has only just arisen in the past 50 years or so, the more important of it in the last 5 years! In very sophisticated science labs oddly not mentioned in ancient Jurusalem!
As well, don't they also adamantly assert that their God "Insta-Poofed" all of it into creation one week ? That's not only improbable, but technically impossible, and wildly implausible, and also flies in the face of literally massive mounds and heaps of facts, evidence and predictable outcomes in geology, DNA genome mapping, astronomy, paleontology, archeology, ever-more sophisticated and accurate dating methods, accurate [but dissonant with Christian...) historic writings from China, Japan and others, and dozens of other disciplines and sources.
BTW, God didn't author the Torah or Qu'Ran. The physical hand of minions and acolytes did this, and of course, they "filtered" it through what they thought of those stories, what they felt was important, and tinted by their own superstitious and mystical fears. and their interpretation of lightning, floods and earthquakes. WE KNOW what they wrote of those, and now we know otherwise. Don't we/you?
Fact: putting vastly over-reaching assumptions aside for a moment, there's absolutely no credible biblical references to genetics, as the absolutely infallible basis for life and genetics variability or of genetic science itself (hell, of any science as a means to answering questions of Mother Nature) and in fact Evolution).
Be mistaken. In Bible "heroes" and "god" knew laws "RITA" - the blood and spirit law. Are known as "Telegonia"
Look history about Anan. God forced Anan to enclose "seed". Anan hasn't made (it knew that the child not with its genes) will be born. Anan "poured out the seed" to earth. God has killed Anana (punishment for insubordination).
Be mistaken. In Bible "heroes" and "god" knew laws "RITA" - the blood and spirit law. Are known as "Telegonia"
Look history about Anan. God forced Anan to enclose "seed". Anan hasn't made (it knew that the child not with its genes) will be born. Anan "poured out the seed" to earth. God has killed Anana (punishment for insubordination).
I see you didn't get the memo about the theory of Telegony being false. It was based on ideology alone. No scientific facts were harmed in the making of this 'theory'. I would laugh but it's just to stupid to even consider.
I see you didn't get the memo about the theory of Telegony being false. It was based on ideology alone. No scientific facts were harmed in the making of this 'theory'. I would laugh but it's just to stupid to even consider.
I speak about that I see and I feel.
Discrimination to a national sign (genetic - cultural) is an everyday occurrence in the Bible, the Koran and in that World.
Science and the big historians don't like to recognize the errors. They persistently trust in myths. In the presence of material proofs. At me the careful relation to "the scientific facts".People knew that is poisonous or edible. It is not obligatory to have a microscope and the computer to notice the facts in the field of genetics. It also is reached by means of supervision and was accessible to any " ancient person " at all times.We live under nature laws which have been learned since the first times.
Last edited by eloy; 08-29-2010 at 10:53 AM..
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The larger story...
) says God will take care of all the styrofoam, but Rush is a technical moron. Oh, plus he knows his audience and their effect on his personal bottom line. And his cloistered, filtered life on his property in Flaw-dah! Easy for his ilk to make stupid pronouncements from "the idiot pulpit".
