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Why didn't your god abide by his own laws? Why did "he" command the murder of innocent children in the Old Testament? Please answer the question.
Also, I do not believe in absolute moral laws. Besides, humans are the highest authority on earth. Who is to say that global human institutions cannot create "absolute moral laws?" Why must there be a deity for absolute morality to exist?
As to your first question, God in his mercy took these children who were going to be raised to eventually destroy innocent Others and to continue the family line of hatred toward God himself and thus spend an eternity permanently distanced from him. With God taking these children before an age of accountability, he spared them a dreaded eternity and gave them safe harbor and incredible bliss being in his arms. Physical death in this life isnt anywhere near as important as to ones eternal residence . Gods ways are always better for us . And...it matters not what WE think God should have done since he knows the entire Chess Game from start to finish .
You DO believe in absolute moral laws -- its just that you dont want to be under control by them . Most dont. There is an absolute standard of right and wrong that is written on the heart of every human being . People may deny it, they may suppress it, their actions may contradict it...but their REACTIONS reveal that they know it.
The Moral Law must have a Source higher than ourselves because it is a prescription on the hearts of all people . Since prescriptions always have Prescribers (they dont arise from nothing) , the Moral Law Prescriber God must exist. This makes many people very uncomfortable.
[quote=reed067;21549181][quote=007.5;21548707]Even (alleged) Atheists need faith in thier philosophies and make a religion out of things like Darwinnian Evolution , first life appearing on earth, and the Cosmos coming to exist ..... for they have to be believed in by faith since no one has ever seen macro evolution in progress or operation / no one has seen the dead raw chemicals in the sky which burped out a fully functioning Protozoa having enough specified complexity in it by way of deliberate information filling an eqyivalent 1,000 volumes of encyclopedias/ or the Cosmos being started from nothing intelligent ...complete with the over 150 LIfe Enabling Constants all working in unison so Earth can be our home . In fact, it is the kind of Blind Faith that you refer to.
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Excatly even Athiests have faith as to what they believe. Even though I might not believe in the same God as some of you do here, I do believe that it took an intellegent being of sorts to do so.
Thank you for your input. In fact, we ALL have faith in something because we ALL surrender to something or someone in our lives that we hold in great esteem . As to which is the correct Creator, this can be deduced in a reasoned and rational method if you want to go there. But because the Creator has to be a theistic one, that is....being over / above / more powerful / personal / knowable/ and greater in essence that what he created (much like a Painter is to his painting)... the Creator being theistic
like this has to belong to a theistic religion of which there are only two : Islam and Christianity (Judiasm) . The many other religions are not theistic and can be eliminated. As to which IS the one...it can be rationally discussed with evidence as proof.
007.5 so let's hear where you derive your morals from then? Let's see if it is viable?
Thanks in advance
I get my intrinsic / infused Moral Law from the same place everyone else (including atheists) gets theirs . Just as life has been seen to only come from life itself, it is the same for the Moral Law that is in all of us--- the Moral Law is Gods standard of rightness , and it helps us adjudicate between the different moral opinions people may have. The Moral Law is the final standard by which everything is measured . The standard of rightness is the very nature of God himself.....infinite justice and infinite love. The Moral Law sure didnt arise from nothing or from materials as in an atheistic worldview (neither could other personal attributes like intellect, freewill, inalienable rights of personhood , reason, design, logic, and truth. These things can only exist if God exists).
People doing whatever they feel like doing by suppressing thier moral consciences , isnt proof that there are no absolute moral laws ; its just proof that people can veto their moral consciences so they can do what they want to benefit themselves.
You assume that their actions required "supressing their moral consciences", however. Is there any proof that they did so?
I have no doubt that terrorists, regardless of which religion the subscribe to, believe they are doing what is "right". If you believe your actions are "right", that requires no setting aside of morals. No?
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Originally Posted by 007.5
Since you believe in moral relativism instead of any absolute moral laws...you wouldnt object to me trying to convince your wife or g/f to be sexually-relative with me, right ? Your reaction to this would be one of indifference and apathy, correct ? Hardly . You see, many of us would love to live as if there are no absolute moral laws because freedom to do as we wish is so treasured , but our REACTIONS to when we are absolutely violated show otherwise dont they ?
Nope, I wouldn't object to that. Why? Because I trust my wife and don't believe she would hurt me in that way. *Could* I be wrong, yes. I don't believe I am however.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
Do you ever wonder why you try to hide when youve done something wrong ???? This too, is because you know (intrinsically) that youve violated a moral law that you knew was absolutely right to uphold ., but you instead chose to have your own way.
Is it intrinsic, or is it simply that we've been raised to believe it was "wrong" and that we fear the punishment/disapproval of our family/friends? I would argue it's a matter of conditioning.
If absolute morals exist you could raise a child in an complete vacuum and they would still develop this moral "code", because it is handed down by "God". Do you believe that would happen? I absolutely do not.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
Theres no escaping it...we have a moral code , a moral oughtness...
I never suggested we didn't.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
...an objective moral standard infused in us that shows itself often...
This is where we begin to disagree. People in this country (USA) believe that it is wrong to kill/eat dogs, cats, horses and a host of other animals. However, in other cultures that is perfectly acceptable. So, which group is wrong with regards to the "absolute moral code"?
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Originally Posted by 007.5
...ALL of us have this...
No, we obviously don't.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
...Laws require a Law Prescriber ... and moral laws require an absolute Moral Law Prescriber also.
That assumes, again, that there is such a thing as absolute moral law. I see no evidence of such a thing existing.
As to your first question, God in his mercy took these children who were going to be raised to eventually destroy innocent Others and to continue the family line of hatred toward God himself and thus spend an eternity permanently distanced from him. With God taking these children before an age of accountability, he spared them a dreaded eternity and gave them safe harbor and incredible bliss being in his arms. Physical death in this life isnt anywhere near as important as to ones eternal residence . Gods ways are always better for us . And...it matters not what WE think God should have done since he knows the entire Chess Game from start to finish .
You DO believe in absolute moral laws -- its just that you dont want to be under control by them . Most dont. There is an absolute standard of right and wrong that is written on the heart of every human being . People may deny it, they may suppress it, their actions may contradict it...but their REACTIONS reveal that they know it.
The Moral Law must have a Source higher than ourselves because it is a prescription on the hearts of all people . Since prescriptions always have Prescribers (they dont arise from nothing) , the Moral Law Prescriber God must exist. This makes many people very uncomfortable.
Your so called religious moral laws are not doing so well, since almost all the people in your prisons are in fact religious, and less than .03 % are atheists.... http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm
There are no objective moral laws, but if there were I certainly would not look to Christianity for mine.
...You DO believe in absolute moral laws -- its just that you dont want to be under control by them . Most dont...
Ah, so now you know my mind better than I do myself? Your arrogance is staggering.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
...There is an absolute standard of right and wrong that is written on the heart of every human being...
You repeating this, ad nauseum, does not lend the idea any more credence. Please provide some evidence for this claim. I'll wait.
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Originally Posted by 007.5
...The Moral Law must have a Source higher than ourselves because it is a prescription on the hearts of all people . Since prescriptions always have Prescribers (they dont arise from nothing) , the Moral Law Prescriber God must exist. This makes many people very uncomfortable.
Please provide proof or, hell, even evidence that moral absolutes exist, or that God exists. Either one will do for a jumping-off point.
Even (alleged) Atheists need faith in thier philosophies and make a religion out of things like Darwinnian Evolution , first life appearing on earth, and the Cosmos coming to exist ..... for they have to be believed in by faith since no one has ever seen macro evolution in progress or operation / no one has seen the dead raw chemicals in the sky which burped out a fully functioning Protozoa having enough specified complexity in it by way of deliberate information filling an eqyivalent 1,000 volumes of encyclopedias/ or the Cosmos being started from nothing intelligent ...complete with the over 150 LIfe Enabling Constants all working in unison so Earth can be our home . In fact, it is the kind of Blind Faith that you refer to.
Im glad that there is plenty of emphirical detectable evidences for a personal theistic Creator , and the only faith i require is to link them to a willful intelligent Source that purposely designed and engineered the Universe in a very specific way to show his love, care, and awesome abilities beyond human comprehension. You can know this Creator who is YOUR creator, also. But it will require you altering your Will.
Atheists don't make a religion out of anything.
Are you misrepresenting the evidence and theories of evolution, abiogenesis, et al, out of malice or just sheer ignorance?
As to your first question, God in his mercy took these children who were going to be raised to eventually destroy innocent Others and to continue the family line of hatred toward God himself and thus spend an eternity permanently distanced from him.
007.5, do you know how many times some of us have heard this line. It is EXTREMELY faulty and smart Christians think it through BEFORE they draw such conclusions because, trust me when I tell you, it opens a can of worms you will not be able to deal with. Not even in the bible does it even say this was the case so it is (and has been) strictly speculation on the part of Christian apologists who realizes the awkwardness of such passages.
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With God taking these children before an age of accountability, he spared them a dreaded eternity and gave them safe harbor and incredible bliss being in his arms.
[
*sigh*
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[Physical death in this life isnt anywhere near as important as to ones eternal residence . Gods ways are always better for us . And...it matters not what WE think God should have done since he knows the entire Chess Game from start to finish.
Chess game is correct IF this is what folks believe.
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You DO believe in absolute moral laws -- its just that you dont want to be under control by them . Most dont. There is an absolute standard of right and wrong that is written on the heart of every human being . People may deny it, they may suppress it, their actions may contradict it...but their REACTIONS reveal that they know it.
So can we kill people we don't like just like the god in the bible? At least we will be helping them on their way to eternal bliss in his arms.
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The Moral Law must have a Source higher than ourselves because it is a prescription on the hearts of all people . Since prescriptions always have Prescribers (they dont arise from nothing) , the Moral Law Prescriber God must exist. This makes many people very uncomfortable.
There are no objective moral laws, but if there were I certainly would not look to Christianity for mine.
They arent 'so called religious laws' ... they are infused laws that YOU personally operate with every single day and so do i and so does the Buddhist in the east. Your REaction to when you are morally violated shows that you absolutely know (and feel) when an absolute moral law/value is being infringed upon .
There might be many religious people in prison who claim so ; that only shows that people are willing to suppress their moral conscience (which is a manifestation of the Moral Law in us) , and are realizing the strong hand of the judicial system in hopes that they will get back in line with FOLLOWING the Moral Law within themselves.
In fact, you DO look to the Christian Faiths Moral Laws in the 10 Commdments and teachings of Christ because they are the highest known to mankind , and, they are the very absolute moral laws which become evident every time you get morally violated by another as revealed by your personal reaction to the offense.
007.5, do you know how many times some of us have heard this line. It is EXTREMELY faulty and smart Christians think it through BEFORE they draw such conclusions because, trust me when I tell you, it opens a can of worms you will not be able to deal with. Not even in the bible does it even say this was the case so it is (and has been) strictly speculation on the part of Christian apologists who realizes the awkwardness of such passages.
[
*sigh*
Chess game is correct IF this is what folks believe.
So can we kill people we don't like just like the god in the bible? At least we will be helping them on their way to eternal bliss in his arms.
Um...no it doesn't?
You are entitled to your relative opinions if you like. That is the catalyst for misconceptions.
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