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Staying on the subject of ethics, how does an atheist get this idea of moral oughtness and wanting to demonstrate ethical standards from a materialistic (only) Cosmos ? How do such constructs ultimately arrive from rocks, dirt, hydrogen gas , et al ? Lastly, how do you justify being moral and ethical if they are not derived from a higher standard than yourself ? Finally, if you dont believe there are absolute moral standards and values for all people .... why do your reactions show you have an absolute moral law written on your heart whenever you are morally violated by another ?
As has been explained many times, there are ways to live in a society that benefits both oneself and others to greater degrees than other ways.
This determines preferable behaviours/laws/ethics.
I don't adhere to the idea there are any absolute moral laws.
Reactions.....dislike, sadness, anger....are instigated when an action by another causes mental or physical pain or discomfort.
If I don't share the same morals as the other person what they do may or may not upset me at all.
There is nothing I know of that is 'written on my heart' or on yours, unless you've had surgery and the doc left some penned instructions there. I.E....Cut this>>>>> artery
As has been explained many times, there are ways to live in a society that benefits both oneself and others to greater degrees than other ways.
This determines preferable behaviours/laws/ethics.
I don't adhere to the idea there are any absolute moral laws.
Reactions.....dislike, sadness, anger....are instigated when an action by another causes mental or physical pain or discomfort.
If I don't share the same morals as the other person what they do may or may not upset me at all.
There is nothing I know of that is 'written on my heart' or on yours, unless you've had surgery and the doc left some penned instructions there. I.E....Cut this>>>>> artery
If you dont adhere to any absolute moral laws , then objectively, there is no difference between Mother Theresa and Hitler for each were totally sold out to believing what they were doing was correct . But I assume you do believe that things like dashing babies against walls is absolutely wrong in all cases to all tribes around the world and at all times. (?) . If there are no absolute moral standards then it is only ones opinion as to whether something is right or wrong.
It is not society that determines moral laws..rather it is society that discovers what existing absolute moral laws are as coming from a higher standard that is beyond ourselves....just as the Bill of Rights so indicate coming from our Creator (certain inalienable rights that are intrinsically given us ) . The fact that your reactions to being morally violated show so greatly ... proves that you know and have a moral code written on the fiber of your being (not literally with a pen, but something that is infused in your makeup as a human being) . There isnt a shred of doubt that you would NOT want to live in a world without objective absolute moral laws and instead letting moral relativism be your guide , for, im sure you would vehemently object to your wife announcing to you that she now wishes to be sexually-relative in your marriage and thereby embark on the pleasure of genitilia other than just your own . Would this be a fair statement , or, would moral relativism prevail in your mind under such a circumstance ?
Just as there are road laws to govern our actions, so there are absolute moral laws that we each have and display...not so much by what we want to do, but by our reaction to others who demonstrate a lack of them where we are concerned. In addition, we would not try and hide something we have done wrong, unless we knew intrinsically that it was a violation of the moral law that we have ..... for, people dont hide things that they do which are correct and righteous --- only when they are absolutely not. There are other valid arguements for a moral code existing in all of us , but these brief examples will suffice to show that it takes a Moral Law Presciber the same that any laws are prescibed for a civil society.
Because when you are a sentient being living a pointless existence on an unimportant world in an unimaginably vast universe, you need *something* to hold on to, and the only other choices are hollow and unfulfilling self-indulgence or entropic defeatism.
Wow! Scary in itself! Quiver quiver.... But... I'll assume you're just bein' humorous, right, Chango? There is no abiding necessity for a reason for us to be here. If we did simply arise out of chance biochemical and sub-atomic interactions, collectively organized by the virtues of DNA's ability to remember and test/retest until the better versions come to teh fore, than no; there's no need for divine direction. nd that does not led to your hollow and unfullfilling existence, since it actually does away with teh requirements that we ese to think about anything except in light of some godly guidebook version.
Nope; not my style, and yet, I'm not feelin' the slightest bit shallow or self-indulgent! NOsireee! Fact is, I spent this am organizing a volunteer effort regarding history instruction abotu teh Civil War and it's many cultural mistakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Because a creator makes more sense.
Oh? To whom, pray tell? To yhoom perhaps, but certainly NOT to me. Since I've seen the related biochemistry in action in a lab, and know how these things tend to want to work, I'm not so easily and summarily awe-struck into it "making more sense", nor do I NEED to have a Godly Fa-Fig in my spiritual back pocket, as you seemingly do. That's quite OK: some do, some do not, but this is no way affects the commonsense elements that are so easily seen by those with their eyes willingly open.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebnllnb
How so? When there is zero evidence that supports it. And with the great number of creators that the human race has come up with how do you pick? And why would a creator make such imperfect creations?
Ah yes, mike; agreed! The vast error- and contradiction filled Creation myth, yes? So much better than... than..... hmmmm... than?
Not to mention that the original biblical storybook authors had it all essentially finished up by Day 6. Who'dah known it was nowhere near finished by then, and remains in that constantly changing and evolving state to this very day. But we also see the vastly older stuff (as in that recently noted but 13 M yr old super-Nova that blossomed out in Ursa major...).
You've got it correct: there's ZERO evidence of a singular Creation event, no matter how pleasingly complete it would appear on it's shallow surface. Too many improbable/impossible/unambiguous (*I-I-U?)components to ever be successfully dealt with, except by those who willingly choose to close both eyes, both ears and even their taste buds!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
I see plenty of evidence. So do most people. Most of the world's religions believe in the same creator.
I'd love to see you I-I-U* evidence. You know, where there's no other more likely explanation, and the laws of common sense have not been viciously violated just to teeteringly support the unsupportable. Let's have a short list please? Please??
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
Ive talked to MANY former atheists and have read alot of books by former atheists and in addition to my own personal experience of wanting to be one...I can accurately say that very very few are willing to diligently dig into the evidence for special creationism because they have an apriori-philosophical bias toward materialism and naturalism. As one prominent Evolutionist by the name of Prof. Lewontin publicly said :'.....for, we cannot allow a divine foot in the door' . So much for objective reason .
Yup; that one quote pretty much annihilates all the mass of other technically supportable quotes, research resutls, arguments and common-sense rationale behind atheism. I know I'm now convinced despite my own deep and objective introspection (well over 10 years, plus another 25 in my careers...), my initial disbelief in artheism, and my devotion to my own CHristianity.
I know it all just WHAMMO changed one afternoon, probably while I was drunk and not thinking properly, and if I were only to go to on bended knees to my priest and confess my abject sins, why... just maybe... I could grovel back into the warmth of the sheeple-folds, and toss out all that 40 years of advanced biological, engineering and other very technical education.
As well as my own determinations that the so-called evidence is a bunch of hoo-ee. Let's just take for evidence, for example, and as a counter to yours, that famous Ray "Banana Man" Comfort's impecable line of reasoning about the shape of the banana and God's plan to shape it just for us!!
There. One piece of startling Godly evidence against another that decries theism. OK: you take your pick!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
Staying on the subject of ethics, how does an atheist get this idea of moral oughtness and wanting to demonstrate ethical standards from a materialistic (only) Cosmos ? How do such constructs ultimately arrive from rocks, dirt, hydrogen gas , et al ...and how much does love or discernment weigh in a material only universe ?
Lastly, how do you justify being moral and ethical if they are not derived from a higher standard than yourself ? Finally, if you dont believe there are absolute moral standards and values for all people .... why do your reactions show you have an absolute moral law written on your heart whenever you are morally violated by another ?
What? Yes, there are developed, evolved high moral standards in most all societies, but... how dare you insist that we can only find and glorify moral absolutism via your particular God? He was a late-bloomer add-on myth, designed and tolerated by the Romans to simplify their management of those outrageous Christian rabble-rousers. What, you missed that part of The history of Christianity? Too bad!
What selective and arrogant hubritic tripe to claim all goodness and order in society was solely the outcome of the arrival of Christianity! Prior histoically accurate societal laws and order have been well demo'd in the historical pre-Christian past. There certainly existed well-written Greek, Chinese, Roman, Aboriginal, Japanese and even North American Indian standards for moral rightness. Such structure simply makes good societal sense in terms of survival and a position of moral justice to treat others well, to thus limit the resulting bloodshed if we just go off killing, maiming or cheating others without any justification.
Sorry; Christians DO NOT OWN behavioral norms and standards, much as they might wish to claim it all.
Because you won't even ADDRESS the numerous assertions made by those posters, I conclude that YOUR thoughts on the subject are completely without foundation, probably in reaction to something . . . you obviously are not willing to entertain logical arguments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabfest
It's pretty obvious the Op started this thread in a petty reaction to something else...most likely something related to sexuallity.
Why are you two taking this so personally? You both piggy back on others posts but I've seen little to no thoughts from either of you.
imcurious I haven't responded to every post on this thread nor will I. You take me to task for not answering posts from others put have put no thoughts of your own forward. Why is that? If the posters you've become a carnival barker for wish to address me concerning their posts they can do so without your assistance.
gabfest your petty personal attack speaks volumes about you.
Originally Posted by 007.5 Ive talked to MANY former atheists and have read alot of books by former atheists and in addition to my own personal experience of wanting to be one...I can accurately say that very very few are willing to diligently dig into the evidence for special creationism because they have an apriori-philosophical bias toward materialism and naturalism. As one prominent Evolutionist by the name of Prof. Lewontin publicly said :'.....for, we cannot allow a divine foot in the door' . So much for objective reason .
Amazing if true....I have never, not once, ever met a former atheist. They only place I have ever seen anyone make the claim that they went from belief to non belief, then back again, is here on this forum...I just don't believe it. I certainly cannot envision myself going back to believing the nonsense of religion.
But I assume you do believe that things like dashing babies against walls is absolutely wrong in all cases to all tribes around the world and at all times. (?) .
I do. Your god apparently doesn't:
Psalm 137:9 -- "Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks."
Staying on the subject of ethics, how does an atheist get this idea of moral oughtness and wanting to demonstrate ethical standards from a materialistic (only) Cosmos ? How do such constructs ultimately arrive from rocks, dirt, hydrogen gas , et al ...and how much does love or discernment weigh in a material only universe ? Lastly, how do you justify being moral and ethical if they are not derived from a higher standard than yourself ? Finally, if you dont believe there are absolute moral standards and values for all people .... why do your reactions show you have an absolute moral law written on your heart whenever you are morally violated by another ?
Moral values are socially and evolutionarily constructed. They are only "absolute" because we (society) say they are and because our biology, formed through millions of years of evolution, predisposes us to them.
Why are you two taking this so personally? You both piggy back on others posts but I've seen little to no thoughts from either of you.
imcurious I haven't responded to every post on this thread nor will I. You take me to task for not answering posts from others put have put no thoughts of your own forward. Why is that? If the posters you've become a carnival barker for wish to address me concerning their posts they can do so without your assistance.
gabfest your petty personal attack speaks volumes about you.
I think it is both ironic and disingenuous that you ask for "indisputable evidence," then when someone gives you mathematical evidence, you ignore it . . .I don't need to promote any theories . . .you are the one who is Hell-bent on evidence so why will you not address the posters who have provided such?
I see you are employing what you must think of as clever diversionary tactics to elude those assertions you have no answer for - just calling you on that, and I will continue to do so if I so choose to waste my time that way. I personally can't stomach people weaseling out of preposterous arguments so that is my personal interest!
Like people who believe there is intellegent life on other plants...with...zero...evidence.
It is not a fact, but mathamatically it is a certianity, once the ignorance of goddunnit is discarded as the source of anything.
Evolution is real, and given the estimated number of habitual planets at 10 million trillion the probability approaches certainty. This is based on the Drake Equation (http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/%7Eucapdki/numberofhabs.html - broken link), based in science not on fear, fable and superstition.
It is not a fact, but mathamatically it is a certianity, once the ignorance of goddunnit is discarded as the source of anything.
Evolution is real, and given the estimated number of habitual planets at 10 million trillion the probability approaches certainty. This is based on the Drake Equation (http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/%7Eucapdki/numberofhabs.html - broken link), based in science not on fear, fable and superstition.
What has god-dunnit and evolution have to do with the possibility of life on other planets? (somebody has issues)
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