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Old 05-01-2012, 12:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Indeed. I think that the understanding of the separation of the waters and the idea that they were surrounding the snow-globe of the earth with the sluices in the surrounding mountains ready to be opened to let the 'fountains of the deep' flood the earth, is fundamental to the argument of where the flood - waters came from. The simple mechanism of the winds blowing the waters back through the sluices clears the flood - waters.

Thus the fantastic mechanisms of underground seas and descending comets to magic the flood waters out of nowhere are simply efforts to try to make a myth set in a primitive geography fit what we actually know about how the world is and how it works.
AREQUIPA, I thought I'd point this out:
Quote:
and descending comets to magic the flood waters out of nowhere

The simple mechanism of the winds blowing the waters back through the sluices clears the flood - waters.
I never heard that one. Did you make that up?

I never believed those to be the mechanisms for the historical account of the world-wide flood found in the ancient manuscripts called Genesis.
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:32 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
n/a posts
whoppers and flipflop - good stuff!

I like the Stone Chumash translation of Gen.1:1-3.

'In the begining of God's creating the heavens and the earth - when the earth was astoningly empty, with darkness upon the surface of the deep, and the Divine Presence hovered upon the surface of the waters - God said "Let there be light," and there was light.'

And of course Fox's is great to.

'At the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth,
(when the earth was wild and waste, darkness over the face of Ocean,
rushing-spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters) -God said: Let there be light!'

Both capture the essence of the Hebrew. I do love the capitalized 'Ocean' or 'Deep' aspect of the second translation. Who might that be?

See Ps.74:12-17. Even though the Priestly writer does not have God fighting with creatures the Psalmist does - ooops! Good points woppers!
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Old 05-01-2012, 01:48 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Shiloh, what is matter?
Are you serious - if you have a point please just make it, Mr. Socrates. Otherwise, I would point you to Matter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 05-01-2012, 02:39 PM
 
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Since everything that exists is comprised of matter and no matter is truly solid, why cannot God make matter from His own spirit since spirit is energy?
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:00 PM
2K5Gx2km
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Since everything that exists is comprised of matter and no matter is truly solid, why cannot God make matter from His own spirit since spirit is energy?
Well, if you were following the thread - that would not be creatio ex nihilo but creatio ex deo. The thread was in response to the former and how Christians try to mesh Gen.1:1-3 and this idea. It does not work on many different levels - philosophical is just one of them.
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:07 PM
 
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The bible never states creation came out of nothing. The bible states: "all is out of God"
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:31 PM
 
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And here we go with the senseless derailing.

Eusebius, despite what you're trying to say (and I'm sure you do have a point)- read the thread again, for everyone's sake. We are dealing with a specific issue here that doesn't seem to be pertinent or affected by your suggestion, as interesting as it is.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:45 PM
 
3,483 posts, read 4,045,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Indeed. I think that the understanding of the separation of the waters and the idea that they were surrounding the snow-globe of the earth with the sluices in the surrounding mountains ready to be opened to let the 'fountains of the deep' flood the earth, is fundamental to the argument of where the flood - waters came from. The simple mechanism of the winds blowing the waters back through the sluices clears the flood - waters.

Thus the fantastic mechanisms of underground seas and descending comets to magic the flood waters out of nowhere are simply efforts to try to make a myth set in a primitive geography fit what we actually know about how the world is and how it works.

I'm going to try to make this short - unlike my other posts so far ha.

You make a good point!

The two Creation Accounts are attributed to two different authors (P and J), and each author has a different idea of where the waters were and their function. In the Creation Accounts, we have clear demarcations between P and J - so it's easy to see the differences.

In the Flood narrative, however, two separate traditions (P and J again) have been edited together to create one "mega-narrative". Because of this, there are various discrepancies present. One of the major discerpancies is concerning the origin of the water for the Flood. If you look closely, you will find that the relevant P and J sections' explanation for the water match their original explanation in the P and J Creation Accounts. I find that highly interesting, and so have scholars who have used this as yet another in a number of reasons why the Documentary Hypothesis is perfectly demonstrated by the Flood Narrative.

If you're interested in seeing the Flood Narrative broken down into it's primary sources, I did this in another thread here: //www.city-data.com/forum/23539798-post990.html . There, if your'e interested, you can see what I mean by the different methods of flooding the earth, and then compare it to the two Creation Accounts. I was going to provide some more details on the different Creation explanations for water, but it's late for me now.

Good observation - and it leads to an even more interesting detail in the Flood Narrative. Also helpful is comparing other ANE Flood Myths explanation for the water.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:10 AM
 
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Here we go again with Whoppers derailing.
Whoppers, this thread is not about if there are two creation accounts by P & J. That there are two creation accounts attributed to two different authors has been debunked many years ago.

This thread is about Creation being out of nothing. It is not about your Flood Narrative ideas etc. as interesting as they may be.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:36 AM
 
Location: South Africa
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One of the problems with Genesis and that which we know of the origins of how planets form - water came much later.

An old earth would probably have had hills and valleys and as water formed by whatever means, gravity pulled it to the lowest area and formed the seas.

The concept that the earth was w/o form and void and everything was water is thus implausible. Earth was never a pure water planet despite being 70% water.

We pretty much know the aspect of Pangea and how the continents drifted apart. Life evolved on these continents very differently yet there are similarities in topography suggesting the same influences of wind and water erosion forming mountains and evidence of a very old earth.

None of the ME authors knew of Aus or even Japan let alone Southern Africa and Antarctica. Their "world" was seen as flat and observation of the sky, well it does appear to be a dome from ground level. The curvature of the earth is very apparent at sea level when one looks out yet they were flat earthers. To see the curvature inland, one needs altitude and lots of flat land surrounding. How they could not figure this out beats me

They did not understand the water cycle and thus springs were assumed to be "fountains of the deep" The rain gods and these springs were not correlated and Genesis gets it totally wrong where it says there once was no rain. Right there, that is a physical impossibility but is IMO a set up to use this factoid of the earth spouting forth fountains to the extent the mulims claim the force was so great that that is what pock marked the moon as rocks were thrown out into space.

The evidence of Pangea, the fludd freaks then suggested that this coincided with Noah's fludd and in fact the springs gushing forth, the water went 20km into the sky and the continents moved at speeds of up to 40km/h away from each other. Yup a YEC claim.

We all know when the earth has a hiccup with subduction and the devastation that brings yet the YEC folk hold to this as a possible explanation to make the Genesis account fit.
The forming of supercontinents and their breaking up appears to be cyclical through Earth's 4.6 billion year history. There may have been several others before Pangaea. The fourth-last supercontinent, called Columbia or Nuna, appears to have assembled in the period 2.0-1.8 Ga (wiki)
So non-science or simply nonsense prevails trying to validate the flood claim.

However this fludd claim is suggested to be the whole world was covered by water at the creation event aka the "Great Flood", mileage varies.

The only thing the theist then does well how do we know back then they did not move away faster which boils down to I make up a story and then the onus is on you to disprove it. Sorry science does not work that way.

Because dogmatic theists are hopelessly unschooled in basic geology and geography, they mix the stories up and no one is the wiser unless they fact check.

Based on the simple fact that all continents originated around Africa, then it stands to reason we should see identical fauna and flora right around the globe, but we don't. Sure we get elephants in the Indian subcontinent but they are vastly different to the African elephant, the mountain lion in the USA is not found in Africa neither are tigers.

Fossils show us woolly mammoths and while they are similar to elephants they are another species (now extinct)

Everything shouts adaptation, old earth, evolution, yet somehow the bible literalist gnaws at his own arm to try make the bible story fit the now irrefutable evidence in opposition to the bible claims.

The bible really does not add value to the ascent of man. All it shows is wilful or selective ignorance of times past. It really is not a book of morals either or else we would be stoning kids, gays and adulterers yet we do not do that anymore now do we? (muslims excluded of course)

Yet the whole premise of Genesis revolves around a fundamental doctrine of original sin. W/o OS the rest of the story, no matter how fascinating one may find it is moot and irrelevant.

Not once has the theist been able to demonstrate creation. All they do is (sometimes) adapt to the new discoveries (aka facts) and reinvent themselves which has theistic evolution as a inconsequential counter. When they discovered DNA this was obviously too "complex" to have simply come about on its own and as such the theist laid claim to what was not even known 100 years ago.

4.5-4.7 Billion years folks, that is the undisputed age of the earth, plenty of time to develop from simplex to complex forms.

The bible authors were totally unawares of the basic fundamentals of how stuff works so that is why the sun is created after plants and out of sequence. W/o the sun, we would not have a ball of water but a ball of ice and nothing would survive. Simple logic and very basic biology tells us this could not have transpired in this manner or order.

Of course there is always magic
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