The "simple cell" is more complex than mankinds most complex factories (Abraham, Christianity)
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You see, it is statements like these that makes us go WTF? You are never gonna see it happen in the way you EXPECT to see it happen like a crocoduck or whatever form of evolution "proof" you need to see. Evolution does not work that way. Humans have been around for only 150 million years of the planets 4.5-4.7 billion years of existence that is a drop in the bucket and even 150M years is hard to get your head around seeing we only live for 80 or so years.
The first thing we prove and have ample evidence of is an old earth, far older than any biblical claims. While you guys cite Romans and say see god manifest in nature, we say see nature and observe the evidence.
Nature alone refutes a whole heap of the bible and the flood is but one of them.
Are you willing to look behind the curtain and out the window?
All the peer reviewed stuff is there and I am sure an evolution for dummies will yield sites that explain it in simple layman terms.
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Which honestly is quite ironic of the atheists' reason to not believe in God, they don't see Him.
It is more than seeing. ALL the alleged claims to his existence are myths. For example, Exodus never happened. A 40 year trek of an alleged 2-6M folk yields absolutely ZERO archaeological evidence, thus reasonable folk conclude it never happened. If you folk just had the ark of the covenant and the stone tablets, no one could argue. These artefacts are simply missing and conveniently to boot. Much of the rest of the alleged history of your god is proven to be no more than folklore and huge borrowing from other folklore and myths.
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Well have you seen a human evolved from a species with your own eyes?
How about the the Aussie Duck-billed Platypus? I guess it was created that way?
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And yet you believe it as fact? really? where is your logic in that? Pray, tell me... or not.
We keep telling you, there's that pesky Lensky experiment and yet you all just come back and say "well, they still be bugs"
Of course we have DNA and all the whizz that goes with that. Through that we use this knowledge to predict and alter medication to evolving strains of flu. Yeah still bugs but we know the common cold, you never get the same virus twice.
So much of our understanding of evolution has advanced medicine to waaaay past what was discovered as penicillin from bread mould. Hell we have alternatives as some humans are allergic to some antibiotics. Are you not glad these researchers follow the evidence of evolution to develop the next vaccine? Imagine if we were all still susceptible to polio, science eradicated that disease through inoculation.
Hell even your immune system evolves.
These are the things we can track say in "real time".
Then we look at other evidence, predict stuff, extrapolate and lo and behold, DNA and RNA tells us "dang you were right"
But of course this all starts to get technical and the argument of irreducible complexity is offered by creationists and they go and slap a big old godunnit yellow sticker on DNA and claim that is how god planned it.
The only thing that evolves with theists are their lame apologetics as science progresses and closes more and more gaps for god as it moves forward. 60 years ago creationists did not even know about DNA, now all of a sudden since science has discovered it, the theists want to lay claim to the very thing that refutes a god. How quaint and original.
I will keep bringing this up until a theist gives an explanation.
The bible suggests that the seed of man was the thing that made babies, women were mere incubators. Is this still valid?
The bible still suggests that the menses of women is unclean and to be ashamed of. Is this still valid?
You have had over 150 years to add a footnote to the bible or redact these passages and yet there they are, in full ignorance and defiance of what SCIENCE has proven not to be the case.
If you have no clue what I am taking of, the righteousness of man is as filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord. Filthy rags are used menstrual cloths IOW a used pad or tampon in the modern context.
Is a women's menses an unclean thing, a filthy thing, a secret fountain?
This is the major difference between reality/science and theism. You cannot redact your bible as then you would have pretty little left to work with and of course, it has the lame claim as the inerrant (without error, inspired) word of god. When science finds flaws in previous theories or claims, it self corrects.
Science is the search for truth, theism is the anchor holding onto outdated archaic ideas.
Science even has a good idea why people have religious experiences and you know what?
Originally Posted by silverworks Fact to me is seeing it happen.
So, then since you believe in creation, I guess you've seen it happen, right? How about all the other incredible things in the bible that you believe, have you seen all those as well?
as far as i know those fossils are not yet as definitive as your 'bible aka science book'. arent they still looking for the elusive missing link and the one presented was even found out to be fraud?
The "missing link" concept hasn't been seriously used in evolutionary theory since I believe the 1970's.
Just shows how out of date and uninformed you are on evolution.
And which fraud would that be? Piltdown man?
Or are you another one of those fools who believe Lucy was a fraud because you read it on some quack creationist propaganda website or publication?
Science even has a good idea why people have religious experiences and you know what?
IT IS ALL IN THE HEAD.
Come on, Seeker . . . when will you atheists stop trying to use this useless solipsistic argument. EVERYTHING is all in our head . . . if you want to get technical about it. Sheesh!
Tell that one to forensic crime scene investigators...
Which reminds me an anecdote I read by Richard Dawkins using just that analogy:
"The fossil evidence for evolution in many major animal groups is wonderfully strong. Nevertheless there are, of course, gaps, and creationists love them obsessively."
"Let's use the analogy of a detective coming to the scene of a crime where there were no eyewitnesses. The baronet has been shot. Fingerprints, footprints, DNA from a sweat stain on the pistol, and a strong motive, all point toward the butler. It's pretty much an open-and-shut case, and the jury and everybody in the court is convinced that the butler did it. But a last-minute piece of evidence is discovered, in the nick of time before the jury retires to consider what had seemed to be their inevitable verdict of guilty: somebody remembers that the baronet had installed spy cameras against burglars. With bated breath, the court watches the films. One of them shows the butler in the act of opening the drawer in his pantry, taking out a pistol, loading it, and creeping stealthily out of the room with a malevolent gleam in his eye. You might think that this solidifies the case against the butler even further. Mark the sequel, however. The butler's defense lawyer astutely points out that there was no spy camera in the library where the murder took place, and no spy camera in the corridor leading from the butler's pantry. "There's a gap in the video record! We don't know what happened after the butler left the pantry. There is clearly insufficient evidence to convict my client."
"In vain, the prosecution lawyer points out that there was a second camera in the billiard room, and this shows, through the open door, the butler, gun at the ready, creeping on tiptoe along the passage toward the library. Surely this plugs the gap in the video record? But no. Triumphantly the defense lawyer plays his ace. "We don't know what happened before or after the butler passed the open door of the billiard room. There are now two gaps in the video record. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my case rests. There is now even less evidence against my client than there was before."
"The fossil record, like the spy camera in the murder story, is a bonus, something that we had no right to expect as a matter of entitlement. There is already more than enough evidence to convict the butler without the spy camera, and the jury was about to deliver a guilty verdict before the spy camera was discovered. Similarly, there is more than enough evidence for the fact of evolution in the comparative study of modern species and their geographical distribution. We don't need fossils. The case for evolution is watertight without them, so it is paradoxical to use gaps in the fossil record as though they were evidence against evolution. We are lucky to have fossils at all."
Wow! Where on earth did you come up with this one, ben m'lad?? Such a silly prediction of pre-determined Evolutionary process, based entirely on the decisions of a group of candidate cells? Demonstrably preposterous on it's face!
I'd love to see this highly speculative hypothesis of yours discussed in detail. First, however, please do provide us all a credible technical explanation ( a link, if you would be so kind..) and the provision of a technical demonstration of such cellular groupings and their ability to "direct" subsequent Evolution. This is pure dismissive denialism, at once both a creative and imaginative invention at it's worst, and drivel at best.
There is no group of cells within any organism that "directs" it's future Evolution in any particular direction or timing! If this were so, how then could an original single celled organism Evolve at all? Where exactly would it's group of candidate determinant cells exist? And why this subterfuge on their parts? Are they ditto under the specific tutelage of your imagined God entity?
This is rather obvious, m'lad (wow, you're really feeling proud...).
Evolution is the product and image of an algorithm. any link wouldn't be more proof than mere consideration...when I say "evolution", what am I talking about?
"natural selection" follows an algorithm that stems from the behavior of certain cells. in single-cell cases, they ARE the candidate solutions, just not part of a greater unit, like in the case of animals and plants.
The bacteria that's performing tasks within our body are a collection of individual candidate solutions, often which have mutated to either perform more complex functions or do not mutate in accordance to the rest and have their role determined by their relation to what the new unit becomes. If it conflicts with the rest, they're likely serving as the cause of ailment.
All evolutionary algorithms(what mutations are the product of) are relative to a candidate solution's response to conditions.
Indeed it is young fella mi lad! I find your posts far to difficult to read when you insert your answers into what the other person said. It is a great loss for me not to be able to read your gems any more but it takes too much time and energy to work them out.
Please old chap...highlight the part you want to respond to, click the 'Quote' button and then write your reply. Then I can once again enjoy your posts.
Interesting. See, I like the answers within quotes, but then I came from usenet where the OP is automagically quoted and the person answering in general puts answers after individual parts. It's much more like a conversation and quotes from each person are interspersed.
If you have never been on usenet, it works like this:
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With each > being a different person who is answering the post.
The disbelief in evolution especially how human came to be is i believe the WTF factor for God believers like me. You can present your theories as facts all you want with 'mounting evidences' even but the REAL evidence of seeing those evidences happen with our own very eyes is where? NOWHERE! lol.
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Originally Posted by silverworks
Fact to me is seeing it happen. Which honestly is quite ironic of the atheists' reason to not believe in God, they don't see Him. Well have you seen a human evolved from a species with your own eyes? And yet you believe it as fact? really? where is your logic in that? Pray, tell me... or not.
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Originally Posted by silverworks
as far as i know those fossils are not yet as definitive as your 'bible aka science book'. arent they still looking for the elusive missing link and the one presented was even found out to be fraud?
quite honestly if i see the evolution of man with my own eyes then yes, i would be a fool to still believe in God, but the fact of the matter is... i have not seen a man evolve from a species according to your 'bible aka science book'.
For me you also are believing in blind faith. believing that it happened in the span of oh billions and billions of years ago. if it is not considered blind faith then i dunno what it is.
All you have shown us my new freind, is how very clueless and uneducated you are on the topic and the processes of evolution and why and how it works.
Your assertion that we should "see it take place" before our very own eyes is laughable indeed. That is the stuff of ignorance and wild imagination, which ironically enough is the stuff of religion.
Come on, Seeker . . . when will you atheists stop trying to use this useless solipsistic argument. EVERYTHING is all in our head . . . if you want to get technical about it. Sheesh!
No not everything is in our head, sure we process sight, sound etc. but unlike you, I know that the fuzzy feel good "spiritual" things are merely brain induced euphoria, you label this, nature and the universe as god b/c this god you experience exists nowhere else you can point to. Whereas I can point to a rose and and say see, a rose and 100% of people will see a rose (nature). IOW nature exists w/o human consciousness/awareness.
At least the practitioners of meditation admit they are exercising their brain and do not claim it to be anything other than self willed experiences.
Thus anyone having fuzzy feel good religious experiences are merely experiencing what their brains are generating whether they do it by accident (mass hysteria) or wilfully.
This is the house of god
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