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I hate to pole my nose in, but before you get into a doctrinal fight with winefly, you have some serious logical restructuring to do.
Faith in your car starting is based on actual experience and at least some understanding of mechanics, plus of course, we know that sometimes it doesn't start and needs some repair. That sort of faith or belief isn't anything to do with religious faith. It is knowledge and experience. This has been explained so many times that I find it difficult to believe that you never had this explained before.
The arguments you have so far put forward as a basis for this faith of yours not only does not approach anything as demonstrably real as a car, but it completely misses the question of 'Which God' is the one you thing universal constants points to. Without the Bible, nobody would even have heard of YHWH or Christianity or indeed Islam. You'd be saying that the fine - tuned universe was proof of Jupiter/Zeus or some equivalent.
I'm not trying to pick on Christians here & I don't want this to become a big fight. I really would like to know. However I never never understood why some can't defend thier faith without mentioning the bible. If your strong in your faith then why not use your own words?
Because the Authority of what we believe is the Bible. To understand the belief, one needs to go to the absolute source of where the belief originated.
Jesus Christ authenticates the Bible as the "Word of God" and quotes from the Old Testament prophets validating them as real people in which is written of them in a historic account.
First validate the design of the 66 books with over 40 authors written over several thousand years as an integrated design that has a divine fingerprint outside the dimension of time writing history in advance. Next authenticate the person of Jesus as Messiah through the 300+ fulfilled prophecies - Daniel 9:25-26 being the central Messianic prophesy prophesying the entrance of Messiah to the exact day and crucifixion. Next study the Gospel account and how Jesus Christ authenticates the Scriptures as the "Word of God".
I highly recommend Dr. Chuck Missler's "Cosmic Codes" easily found on Youtube for free if anyone is truly interested in learning about the integration of the design of the Scriptures validating them as the Message from our Creator-Redeemer.
When you get away from the Bible as the Authority, you have added man's corruption calling it "Christianity". We see this in the Vatican. We also see it in Protestant churches.
I hate to pole my nose in, but before you get into a doctrinal fight with winefly, you have some serious logical restructuring to do.
Faith in your car starting is based on actual experience and at least some understanding of mechanics, plus of course, we know that sometimes it doesn't start and needs some repair. That sort of faith or belief isn't anything to do with religious faith. It is knowledge and experience. This has been explained so many times that I find it difficult to believe that you never had this explained before.
The arguments you have so far put forward as a basis for this faith of yours not only does not approach anything as demonstrably real as a car, but it completely misses the question of 'Which God' is the one you thing universal constants points to. Without the Bible, nobody would even have heard of YHWH or Christianity or indeed Islam. You'd be saying that the fine - tuned universe was proof of Jupiter/Zeus or some equivalent.
In order ---
1. Knowledge (in evidence and reality) plus personal experience is what solidifies Ones faith whether it be in cars or in the personal theistic Creator which is required for what we have and what we find within us . Theres no difference when it comes to 'faith' -- we operate daily in faith and we base it on an input of knowledge which we have determined is truth toward reality , or has some elements of truth to it.
2. The scientific evidences found in Creation which can only come from a personal intelligent willful Cause, are the same lines of converging evidence that One can conclude by examining that personal willful intelligence was needed for the assembly of a Cars engine, fuel system, a/c , comfortable seats , steering, et al....unless you really think that such things dont need a personal intelligent willful Cause either (?) In short, ANYTHING which has an element of personal and intelligence to it, must always come from a first Cause having the same.
3. As to 'which God' : There are only two world religions that proclaim a personal THEISTIC intelligent Creator...that being Islam and Christianity. Because the scientific evidence aligns with a personal theistic Creator being the Causal Agent , it can be narrowed down to one of these two possibilities . With some scrutinizing of both Religions, we can determine that Islam is disqualified while the Christian Religion has very compelling evidence from an independent scientific and historical considerations. (For the sake of brevity, i shall not go into the exhaustive reasons why Islam is a false religion based on scientific reality) .
4. You dont need to know the Creators personal Name of Yahweh or Jehovah or Jesus in order to know that a personal intelligent Theistic Creator exists .You dont know the names of the people who built your car for personal enjoyment either. Nor do you need these names of the Creator to realize that there is a dark personality to oneself and every other human being ; all it takes is some minor introspection on the last point and some willing awareness on the first point (Causation). The Bible simply offers the honest Inquirer answers to his deeper questions about creation, the One behind it , and his human condition / human behavior to which he can admit being true of himself. But it does require an honest seeking open unbiased Mind in coming to the realization of his flaws, darkness in personality, and propensity toward selfishness at the expense of moral oughtness.
5. The incredible fine tuning of our cosmos, solar system, earth in conjunction with our mind boggling human anatomy, dna, plus the animal kingdom , plant life, et al.... is something that a reasonably inclind Seeker can examine by going to the right sources which would make any unbiased Person conclude that it didnt happen willy nilly from mindless naturalism and materialism (atheism) . A careful look into the Bible allows One to see the complete harmony between what the Person can witness in Creation around himself , what modern science is sure of and records...both of which can be experienced thru the senses and logically discerned thru the Mind . In fact, there is no excuse to jettison this obvious evidence which is available for all and right before Ones eyes on a daily basis -- it takes a willful rejection of the evidence for one to wear the label of 'an atheist' ... not based on a lack of evidence, but on volitional will .
Because the Authority of what we believe is the Bible. To understand the belief, one needs to go to the absolute source of where the belief originated.
Jesus Christ authenticates the Bible as the "Word of God" and quotes from the Old Testament prophets validating them as real people in which is written of them in a historic account.
First validate the design of the 66 books with over 40 authors written over several thousand years as an integrated design that has a divine fingerprint outside the dimension of time writing history in advance. Next authenticate the person of Jesus as Messiah through the 300+ fulfilled prophecies - Daniel 9:25-26 being the central Messianic prophesy prophesying the entrance of Messiah to the exact day and crucifixion. Next study the Gospel account and how Jesus Christ authenticates the Scriptures as the "Word of God".
I highly recommend Dr. Chuck Missler's "Cosmic Codes" easily found on Youtube for free if anyone is truly interested in learning about the integration of the design of the Scriptures validating them as the Message from our Creator-Redeemer.
When you get away from the Bible as the Authority, you have added man's corruption calling it "Christianity". We see this in the Vatican. We also see it in Protestant churches.
To know what Christian is go to the source.
It would seem that you're very much misguided in what you believe. Did your Jesus teach from a sacred book? I do not think so, he taught from his heart and that is where your belief should be. He was a teacher of the ordinary people, he did not teach from some sacred book. In order for you to have a belief in something you first have to believe that within your heart and that is where it has to be taught from, not from some sacred writings or books that are open to too many interpretations by too many people who claim to have the authority to teach it. If it doesn't come from the heart, it's not true.
Modern science has provided very compelling evidences for an intelligent Being being the cause of our universe, sustaining it, and making it so fine tuned to provide for human life ......
Then why don't you start another thread here and produce this scientific evidence you claim exists?
Quote:
There are essentially three points that prove a personal theistic Creator plus some other considerations too boot : 1. The Creation around us
There is no evidence of a 'creation'. Like all creationists, you note that the universe exists and immediately jump to the unfounded conclusion that there MUST have been a time when it didn't exist and therefore, had to be created. When you can produce verifiable evidence of a time when there was 'NOTHING', you will perhaps be able to claim a 'creation'.
Quote:
2. The historical figure of Jesus Christ
There is no verifiable evidence ANYWHERE of a historical 'Jesus The Christ'.
Quote:
One need not use the Bible to justify that there has to be a personal theistic Creator for what we have...and...in fact, it is the most absurd of all things to think that everything 'just happened' nilly willy, that we come from a magical one celled pond protozoa, and that materials like rocks/dirt/dense clouds/hydrogen gas gave us our NON-material personality traits of reason, logic, love, abstract thinking, and consciousness . (We tried this back in the early 1980's with the Pet Rock phenominon and only the absurd was able to have a relationship with ones Rock that sat on the Dresser ! But thats about how silly an atheistic worldview is when looking at it ).
This kind of ignorance doesn't warrant a response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
And a fact has to be proven.
Yes it does! Perhaps you could start with your claims for 'a historical Jesus The Christ' and then we could move on to your claim that .... "Modern science has provided very compelling evidences for an intelligent Being being the cause of our universe, sustaining it, and making it so fine tuned to provide for human life..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
They are not 'biased websites' because they use external historical evidences for The BIbles credibility which is the same criteria used on all other secular literary works . If something or someone totally fulfills 200 very narrow predictions written down hundreds of years before the event or person came on the scene, then that is not 'biased' .
...and the evidence that these 'predictions' came to pass can be found ...where?
Quote:
THE worlds top Law Professor who specialized in Court Evidence techniques , named Prof. Simon Greenleaf ...........
Greenleaf died 165 years ago. In those days, doctors insisted that bleeding patients would cure them of illness. Things have changed somewhat since then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
3. Modern Science has confirmed the Bible to be absolutely true time and time again .......
Quote:
Originally Posted by 007.5
In fact, they excerise a TON of faith when they force themselves to think that 'Nature' (natural causes combined with raw materials without a lick of reason or purpose) is responsible for all we have and all we are.
No, we have verifiable evidence to confirm it. No faith required.
Quote:
....we see faith excersised in many daily things we do such as when we drive our cars an have faith that another motorist is going to stop in time behind us
No. The verifiable, objective evidence tells us that 99.9% of the time, motorists behind us DO stop in time. Again...no faith is required. Our belief that motorists behind us will, in most cases, stop in time is based on verifiable evidence, not on 'faith'. Faith is only required when there is no evidence for something.
Quote:
when we step on an airplane having faith it will reach our final destination without crashing ....
Again no! The verifiable, objective evidence proves that 99.9% of the time, aeroplanes DO NOT crash before reaching their destination. Again...no faith is required. Our belief that aeroplane do not normally crash can be verified by the available evidence not 'faith'. Faith is only required when there is no evidence for something.
Quote:
Our whole lives are faith-based
Not true. In fact, very little of our lives are based on 'faith'. For many of us, faith does not exist at all in our lives.
It would seem that you're very much misguided in what you believe. Did your Jesus teach from a sacred book? I do not think so, he taught from his heart and that is where your belief should be. He was a teacher of the ordinary people, he did not teach from some sacred book. In order for you to have a belief in something you first have to believe that within your heart and that is where it has to be taught from, not from some sacred writings or books that are open to too many interpretations by too many people who claim to have the authority to teach it. If it doesn't come from the heart, it's not true.
Yes, He did.
Luke 4
16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Luke 24
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
3. As to 'which God' : There are only two world religions that proclaim a personal THEISTIC intelligent Creator...that being Islam and Christianity. Because the scientific evidence aligns with a personal theistic Creator being the Causal Agent , it can be narrowed down to one of these two possibilities . With some scrutinizing of both Religions, we can determine that Islam is disqualified while the Christian Religion has very compelling evidence from an independent scientific and historical considerations. (For the sake of brevity, i shall not go into the exhaustive reasons why Islam is a false religion based on scientific reality) .
I think in this one you miss the mark. First you have given no reason why there must be only one creator, so polytheistic stances are not ruled out. Secondly, you omit quite a lot of religions that would posit a personal intelligent creator god. Off the top of my head:
Judaism (Can't believe you missed this one!)
Sufism
Bahai
some variants of Hindu theology
Mormonism (assuming you differentiate from mainline Christianity)
Zoroastrians
There appear to be a lot of religious options to choose based solely on a generic creator God concept. The bible is critical for the step of determining which one you should believe.
I am kind of amazed at the amount of disagreement on this. It seems obvious to me, anyway, that the Bible is what differentiates Christianity form every other religion. Why would believers want to water that down? It certainly makes sense to me that the Bible is critical in trying to explain or defend Christianity.
16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21 and he began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”
Luke 24
30 When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31 Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32 They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?”
John 5
These are the Scriptures that testify about me.
This...in a thread entitled..
"Why can't some Christians explain their beliefs without quoting the Bible?"
Ummmm! Would it be that nuclear physicists, doctors and attorneys use reference books that are reasonably up-to-date and written with verifiable evidence to support what they claim ....whilst Christians rely on something that was written 2500 years ago and has no verifiable evidence to support it??
Last edited by Rafius; 06-19-2012 at 02:13 PM..
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