I'm so looking forward for Jesus to come back...You need to explain and answer these questions (quote, faith)
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3. To comprehend and to understand God above all similitudes, as He is in Himself, is to be God with God, without intermediary, and without any otherness that can become a hindrance or an intermediary. Whosoever wishes to understand this must have died to himself, and must live in God, and must turn his gaze to the eternal light in the ground of his spirit, where the Hidden Truth reveals Itself without means. - Ruysbroek. ...
Are you THAT ready, Thomas? With you human attitudes and human science? Are you?
That's a tautology: 'to believe in God, you must believe in God'.
I have no more evidence that Jesus exists than I do of extraterrestrial life. Certainly, if I was given some concrete data, I would re-evaluate my position, but the only thing I ever hear from most of the devout Christians on this board is a variation on the above, a confusing jumble of Bible verses that don't actually say anything, or a patronizing 'You wouldn't understand' that really just infuriates me.
We are capable of comprehendingyour religious beliefs. We always have been. We (and here I speak of non-believers in general) are just sick to death of being treated like idiots by the few 'believers' we approach, so most of us have stopped trying.
I totally agree with you about Noah's Ark. My first question was, "How did the polar bears get to Israel?" Or, the 2 kangaroos from Australia, or the 2 pandas from China, or the two western diamondback rattlers from the Americas, etc, etc. I was seven. When you have a story that you cannot sell to a 7 year old, you really need to rethink your story! If you have 2 lions, 2 tigers, 2 leopards, etc., etc. and you have 2 sheep, 2 goats, 2 gazelles, etc., etc., when the door of that boat opens, you are going to have some mighty fat cats and a big ole pile of bones. Then you say to all of them, "Everybody off. Go home." So, if the polar bears didn't eat the 2 seals on the boat, then they would on the long walk back to Alaska. If there were any herbivores left to walk back to Africa and India, the cats would be eating them along the way.
And, yeah, about the size of that boat... Have we counted the number of species in the Kingdom: Animalia lately?[Well, actually, I haven't, so cut me some slack here; I'm going from memory] How many different snakes are there? Spiders? Cockroaches? Monkeys? There are some 30,000 species of vertebrates that breath air, over a million species of arachnids (most of which cannot be seen with the naked eye), and somewhere around 30 million species of insects. What would it take to feed all this stuff??? And what DID they do with all the waste? NEVER MIND. I really don't even want to go there!
That book that the above story is based on does not say that the entire planet flooded or that Noah was commanded to take 2 of every species on the planet onto the ark. The book says that there was a place in the geographical area of what we now know as Israel that flooded. Even with the small area, this could very well be an allegory.
My problem with this is, if you can't trust what they say about such simple matters as what the book says about Creation and the flood, how do you trust them for any information about the book? Yes, I know that many of you reading this thread do not regard the book as having any significance and I accept that. I'm not speaking of the book's credibility, reliability, or validity here, but of those who proclaim and profess knowledge of the contents of the book and what they claim it stands for.
Which leads me to wonder if atheism is what a person discovers or is he/she prodded, poked, and pummeled by organized religion into a position of atheism because organized religion is so flawed? Is atheism a by-product of organized religion?
If you don't mind sharing, why did you choose atheism?
As I stated, I am a Christian and I do believe in God, but it is in spite of organized religion, not because of it. I was never indoctrinated in any organized religion and had a dad who was never indoctrinated but instead separated the Bible and God from organized religion, even though we attended church regularly. Having that separation allowed me build a relationship with God that I value above all else, and do not doubt for a second, ever.
I realize, Rifleman (and others in this thread), that you take a different stance. That is ok with me. I have no problem with that. I believe it is a personal choice and a personal journey. It is not my place, nor my responsibility, to tell you what to believe or to convince you that my choice is right. The right choice, like beauty, lies in the eyes of the beholder - if you will.
If Jesus existed and did indeed come back and I got to ask him a question, I think it would be: "Are you at all embarrassed about what has been said and done in your name?"
What bothers me most about the Jesus myth? The social loafing and irresponsibility of his followers who sit with their digitus primus entrenched firmly in their distal alimentary canals and say "Well, I don't have to do nothin for nobody because Jeezus is coming back to fix everthang for me" Such apathetic mindset leads to far worse problems than the promotion of myth as fact in schools and in concert parking lots. It leads to poverty, lack of education, paranoia and a plethora of mental neuroses.
Think about it: If I were to subscribe to the myth that Jesus is returning any minute now, why bother to go to work tomorrow? Why bother doing anything? Why bother saving for my kid's 529 ? Why bother with anything? After all, the J-guy is going to come back and all I do is worthless.
And this type of thinking is unhealthy.And fortunately for myself, and those around me, I do not participate in it. I do not buy into the Mindset that Jesus will return. Ever.
Which is why I live every day to the fullest, and live for th pure esoteric pleasure of life, without the constraint and barriers of religious distraction. Freedom from religion, freedom from god*, and the right to express my life to the fullest and encourage those around me to do the same. And since Jesus is not coming back, it falls on us as humans to solve our problems, to find our own answers, and to save ourselves.
God, Zeus, Isis, Shiva, Poseidon, Ganesh, etc, are all man-made entities. Thanks to evolution, one of the advantages man has is our bigger brain, since we don't have sharp teeth or claws or a hard outer shell. From the time man was capable of abstact thought and communication, anything he could not explain was attributed to the gods "up there".
Earthquakes? Gods. Aurora Borealis? Gods. Thunder and hailstones and floods were all attributed to angry gods. Maybe if we behave, the gods will be lenient.
The Judeo-Christian god is no different; he just has a bigger fan club.
And before you tell me to read the bible...I used to be a devout Christian. I read it many, many times.
Weltschmerz,
I understand your point. In a thread such as this, I think it is a given that part of the participants don't believe in a "real" God, while some of the participants do. That is the point where we come together for discussion. Each side has to accept that the other side is here.
The major bone of contention here is a book and whether or not that book is significant. Again, it has to be a given that some will vote, yea, while others will vote, nay. We can debate whether or not there is a real, living God forevermore without a definitive conclusion. There simply is no proof one way or another. Why bother?
My statement that you quoted was regarding what I believe to be ideas, doctrine, and dogma attributed to the Bible that are not from the Bible, but were concocted by organized religion. I'm not arguing for real/true/valid or not for either side. On either side of this difference of opinion, I feel fairly confident in saying that not everyone on each side agrees with everyone else on that same side. I'm also fairly confident that I am a lot more likely to raise the ire of the people on my own side who firmly stand by their own doctrine regardless of what the book may say. With some 40,000 Christian denominations, sometimes the book gets totally lost.
I think that discussions like this should be qualified by Christians and other believers as to the origin of their ideas and beliefs. Some don't realize what is Bible and what is doctrine and dogma. Some don't care - if they learned it in church, well then it has to the true Bible. With some 40,000 denominations, and some like me that don't have one, we all get painted with the same brush as if we all believed the same thing - right or wrong - on our side of the fence. We don't.
I see it kind of like the book of the month club. Let's say we were discussing the Wizard of Oz and a couple of people said their favorite character was the dancing bear because their teacher made it the most fascinating character. Then people come along who haven't read the book and they include the dancing bear. I would want to say that I read the book and there is no dancing bear.
My arguments are more against my side of the fence than the opposing side. As I said, I don't dispute anyone's right to be an atheist. I just don't want anyone factoring a dancing bear into the mix.
You said: "And before you tell me to read the bible...I used to be a devout Christian. I read it many, many times."
I'd like to ask you some questions about this statement. I'm not trying to be rude or gather ammo for a fight. I'm just curious.
What made you change your mind?
Were you a member of an organized religion?
If so, did the teachings of an organized religion make any impact on your interpretation of the Bible as you read?
Did you find things in the Bible that were not in "church" or vise versa?
Any information that you (or any one else reading) are willing to share would be accepted without judgement or argument.
You said: "And before you tell me to read the bible...I used to be a devout Christian. I read it many, many times."
I'd like to ask you some questions about this statement. I'm not trying to be rude or gather ammo for a fight. I'm just curious.
Quote:
What made you change your mind?
Were you a member of an organized religion?
If so, did the teachings of an organized religion make any impact on your interpretation of the Bible as you read?
Did you find things in the Bible that were not in "church" or vise versa?
Any information that you (or any one else reading) are willing to share would be accepted without judgement or argument.
Thank you for your response and for clarifying your position. I can honestly say that I didn't "change my mind".
I was raised in the Russian Orthodox faith. Yes, of course the teaching of that particular faith impacted my understanding of the bible, and I found plenty of things in the bible that were puzzling to me, and not explained by my church. I had to be content with the ubiquitous and insuffcient "God works in mysterious ways".
After a while, I found myself going through the motions, and was determined to find my faith again. I studied many different faiths and belief systems, went to bible study, talked to priests and rabbis, with the end result of losing all vestiges of faith completely. I found all of it highly illogical, from the Jews for Jesus groups to the Baptist evangelicals. The sum total of all the knowledge I accumulated, religious or scientific, just does not support belief.
It's not something I chose, and it's not something I can control. It just is.
I hope this answered your questions. If you have others, please do not hesistate to ask.
Go well.
that's a tautology: 'to believe in god, you must believe in god'.
I have no more evidence that jesus exists than i do of extraterrestrial life. Certainly, if i was given some concrete data, i would re-evaluate my position, but the only thing i ever hear from most of the devout christians on this board is a variation on the above, a confusing jumble of bible verses that don't actually say anything, or a patronizing 'you wouldn't understand' that really just infuriates me.
we are capable of comprehendingyour religious beliefs. we always have been. We (and here i speak of non-believers in general) are just sick to death of being treated like idiots by the few 'believers' we approach, so most of us have stopped trying.
I'm sorry that you have had so much trouble getting answers. May I try?
There is no concrete data, which is why you haven't gotten any. Oddly, most people "believe" because they were born into the religion and are indoctrinated from the cradle. It never occurs to most people to question why they believe. It is ingrained in our beings and is part of our existence. Truly, there is no "why", technically. Organized religions give people structure and a framework - when to come and go, how to act, what to believe, even what to say in their prayers. It gives people a community of like-minded people with which to interact. It creates numerous social functions and keeps families involved a number of times a week. It can be an entire social network for people.
If you ask about a specific denomination, some people can give you the rules and regulations. Others don't know that what they learned in church isn't the same things that all people everywhere learn.
Religious beliefs are hard to define. Here, I am only speaking for myself. I believe that there is a "real, living" God. God's chosen people were the Jews. I am not a Jew, so I didn't have a direct pathway to God. God promised a messiah (deliverer, savior) to the people. He sent His son, Jesus, a Jew (one of His chosen as the Christ (messiah). The purpose for Jesus was that Jesus would die on the cross as the ultimate blood sacrifice as atonement for sins. The Jews had been under God's order to give "blood" sacrifices from animals for atonement and offering and praise. Jesus' role was to be the ultimate blood sacrifice. The Christ opened the pathway to God.
In order to be a Christian, one must only accept the above as true. Once one accepts Jesus as the son of God and the messiah, then one accepts that God, his father, is the true and living God. Once this is done, one accepts the 10 commandments delivered to Moses by God as the 10 rules to live by and aspire to. Then we live our lives the best we can.
I pray to God in the name of Jesus. I ask for strength, peace of mind, courage, guidance, forgiveness for the imperfect person that I am, and other things along these lines. I don't believe God cares if I get a new car or win the lottery, so I don't pray for those kinds of things.
Now, for the "why" I believe - especially in something that I cannot see or hold in my hand. I believe because of what I "feel" - literally. Feelings are hard to describe. How do you explain trust or love or hate or greed or lust to someone who has not yet felt one of these. I cannot prove that love does or does not exist, but I know that it does. That is why our answers always sound the way they do.
I was born into a non-denominational Christian family, so God was always part of my life. However, I didn't "feel" anything. I believed. I tried to live right. I was a good kid. However, I knew something was missing within me. I started with other churches, then with talking to friends, then with written opinions, etc. etc. I did not find the answer I was looking for. Then in my early 20s, I found myself in personal crisis. In the middle of the night, sobbing in sorrow, I called out to God for help. I was filled with a comfort and love that I cannot describe. I felt an invisible hand clamp down on my shoulder. On that basis, I built a personal relationship with God that has never failed me in my time of need - never, not once - in all these decades since. I cannot prove it to you. No one can prove it to you. You have to find it within yourself, by yourself, for yourself. It's like finding love. You have to find it yourself and you know it when you do, but you really can't explain it. Many people find their path through organized religion, others by reading the Bible, others by praying.
You said: "And before you tell me to read the bible...I used to be a devout Christian. I read it many, many times."
I'd like to ask you some questions about this statement. I'm not trying to be rude or gather ammo for a fight. I'm just curious.
Thank you for your response and for clarifying your position. I can honestly say that I didn't "change my mind".
I was raised in the Russian Orthodox faith. Yes, of course the teaching of that particular faith impacted my understanding of the bible, and I found plenty of things in the bible that were puzzling to me, and not explained by my church. I had to be content with the ubiquitous and insuffcient "God works in mysterious ways".
After a while, I found myself going through the motions, and was determined to find my faith again. I studied many different faiths and belief systems, went to bible study, talked to priests and rabbis, with the end result of losing all vestiges of faith completely. I found all of it highly illogical, from the Jews for Jesus groups to the Baptist evangelicals. The sum total of all the knowledge I accumulated, religious or scientific, just does not support belief.
It's not something I chose, and it's not something I can control. It just is.
I hope this answered your questions. If you have others, please do not hesistate to ask.
Go well.
Thank you so much for your answer. I'm not familiar with the Russian Orthodox faith. However, I experienced many of the same things you did. It seemed that the more I investigated other religions and opinions of the "experts", the worse I felt about the whole thing. I'm convinced that organized religion only works as long as nobody shops around!
I had to be content with the ubiquitous and insuffcient "God works in mysterious ways".
My, my, have I heard that one before! My favorite (NOT!) was, "You are not supposed to understand; You are just supposed to do what [church] tells you to do".
I don't believe that Jesus will return but I believe in God. Jesus was the son of God just as everyone is a son of God. What you don't have is faith and that is why you would have so many questions.
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