Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If atheism is a religion, the not collecting stamps is a hobby.
You know how much I love it when you guys break out that ridiculous analogy of "Atheism is a Religion as much as Not Collecting Stamps is a Hobby"?
I posted this before to address the matter...it is applicable here now as well. Remember it?:
As respects "Not Collecting Stamps" being a hobby: Not necessarily...if they merely didn't collect stamps.
BUT!...if they went on stamp-collecting forums and put up thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of posts criticizing them for being into stamps and saying things like, "You idiot! You paid how much for that?! It's just a page of perforated paper with ink on the front and dry adhesive on the back! How ignorant can you be?! Hope you get thousands of dollars of enjoyment looking at it!"(add smacking-head Smiley)...THEN you most certainly would have the hobby (could even be called the "religion") of not-collecting stamps.
When the "No God Crew" quits pretending not to understand the "religion" aspect of what they are doing...and has the guts to cop to it when they try to push their "Atheist Concept and Worldview" harder than Geico pushes its insurance...then it might enable an honest and open discussion.
But it's kinda a "Catch-22" for me...because I would never want them to actually stop with the snark and the (usually lame and childish, but comical) attempt at insults. It would create a terrible "Amusement Deficit" if they ever did.
Thank You so much BCD!
As you know...one of my main reasons for coming to this board is the "amusement factor".
And nothing amuses me more than snarky stuff & dumb stuff.
You just covered BOTH at the same time. Props to you, man!
You'll have to excuse me for the misunderstanding then.
It sounded to me like you were using the example of Santa Claus to illustrate how humans can feel joy and love towards a purely imaginary being.
You know how much I love it when you guys break out that ridiculous analogy of "Atheism is a Religion as much as Not Collecting Stamps is a Hobby"?
I posted this before to address the matter...it is applicable here now as well. Remember it?:
As respects "Not Collecting Stamps" being a hobby: Not necessarily...if they merely didn't collect stamps.
BUT!...if they went on stamp-collecting forums and put up thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of posts criticizing them for being into stamps and saying things like, "You idiot! You paid how much for that?! It's just a page of perforated paper with ink on the front and dry adhesive on the back! How ignorant can you be?! Hope you get thousands of dollars of enjoyment looking at it!"(add smacking-head Smiley)...THEN you most certainly would have the hobby (could even be called the "religion") of not-collecting stamps.
When the "No God Crew" quits pretending not to understand the "religion" aspect of what they are doing...and has the guts to cop to it when they try to push their "Atheist Concept and Worldview" harder than Geico pushes its insurance...then it might enable an honest and open discussion.
But it's kinda a "Catch-22" for me...because I would never want them to actually stop with the snark and the (usually lame and childish, but comical) attempt at insults. It would create a terrible "Amusement Deficit" if they ever did.
If people went on and on and on and on about stamp collecting in the manner people like you do about all this god nonsense, you might have a point. But until you can find an example of stamp collectors trying to legislate their hobby onto other people's children like religious people do, there's no comparison.
When the "No God Crew" quits pretending not to understand the "religion" aspect of what they are doing...and has the guts to cop to it when they try to push their "Atheist Concept and Worldview" harder than Geico pushes its insurance...then it might enable an honest and open discussion.
This kind of attitude is precisely the reason why religion is a blight upon the human condition. Thanks for illustrating the point I've been making all over this message board - though I'm quite certain you had no idea that you were assisting me.
For one thing, the hypocrisy is just so astoundingly obvious that I just cannot believe that the Christians themselves fail to see it. After all, how can any Christian whinge over atheists trying to push their "Atheist Concept and Worldview" onto others when Christians have a propaganda hub (a.k.a. church) on every other street corner - and went to great expense to make sure their "re-education centers" were the most prominent buildings in town.
Secondly, perhaps more to the point, atheism doesn't have a unified "concept and worldview" except that all of us, by definition, reject the religious god concepts that believers of all stripes try to foist onto the free-thinkng peoples of the world. We atheists can then add to the list of charges against Christians the seemingly irresistable need to "project" their shortcomings onto atheists. Since Christians under the same denomination do have virtually identical "concepts and worldviews," then it must stand to reason that all atheists must also have identical "concepts and worldviews."
Sorry, but atheism is such a broad issue that it encompasses a massively diverse group of people. Put 10 atheists in a room and, chances are, there will be 10 distinct and unique concepts and worldviews. The only guaranteed agreement among those 10 people will be that there is no god - not until there is sufficient evidence to believe in one.
Things like evolution and the Big Bang are NOT tenats of atheism. Yes, it's true that most atheists do accept evolution and the Big Bang as the best explanations, but it isn't universal. I have met a few atheists who are extremely skeptical of evolution, but that's pretty rare. However, I could argue that the vast majority of atheists also like pizza, but that hardly allows you to assume liking pizza is a tenat of atheism.
Believers like yourself also need to stop defining a religion as any "strongly held belief or opinion." You define religion so broadly that even being a die-hard fan of a football team qualifies as a religion.
Finally, I would ask you to do a simple observation experiment. When you are out and about running errands, at work, in your daily routine, listen to conversations going on around you. In addition, you can do the same thing when watching television or listening to a political speech. Listen and take note of how many times people reference God, Jesus, or make respectful references to prayer, belief, or other religious concepts. Also, take note of how many TV characters outwardly profess to be either Christian or Catholic and spend time on the show engaging in prayer or attending (or talking about) church.
Then ... do the same thing for atheism. Beyond message boards, how often do you hear references to atheism in your day-to-day travels? How often do you see overtly atheist characters on television shows? If you even hear the word "atheism" even once in a week's worth of observation, I will be profoundly amazed.
Thus this misguided and hopelessly erroneous belief that atheists are somehow pushing our so-called "agenda" onto Christians is just the stupidest thing I've heard coming out of the conservative right-wing propaganda aparatus in a very long time. There is a certain penchant for atheists to debate religion with believers on message boards - but in the real world? Not a chance. Atheists risk quite a bit just by admitting they're atheists. Plus far too many Christians think that their religion should be respected no matter what one's beliefs happen to be, and they'll get extremely agitated if you even so much as accidentally suggest that their religion is bogus. Not to mention the reality that atheism doesn't even have a political voice; all we can do is sit back and hope that our elected politicians and appointed supreme court justices put the US Constitution before the Bible when enacting laws. However, it has been demonstrated in recent years that forced adherence to the Bible is slowly winning out over true religious freedom.
If people went on and on and on and on about stamp collecting in the manner people like you do about all this god nonsense, you might have a point. But until you can find an example of stamp collectors trying to legislate their hobby onto other people's children like religious people do, there's no comparison.
You make it sound like it's MY fault that religion (Christianity, specifically) is so prevalent in this country...and beyond. I didn't do it...I swear!
As far as the U.S. goes...you can look at those so-called "Founding Father" dudes for the true place to lay blame.
Because, while writing deceptive words in documents and letters, and giving deceptive speeches, that were nothing but diversionary tactics...they promoted their brand of religion and inculcated the new society and government (to replace the non-religious one they overthrew by genocidal force and swindle) with Christianity to the best of their ability and resources. They succeeded sooooooo well...the influence continues to this day.
They called the shots back then...and that is what they chose to do.
All subsequent administrations have followed suit and put religion on full display in and on everything related to the government. This supports and perpetuates the work done by the Founding Con-m...excuse me...Founding Fathers.
This kind of attitude is precisely the reason why religion is a blight upon the human condition. Thanks for illustrating the point I've been making all over this message board - though I'm quite certain you had no idea that you were assisting me.
For one thing, the hypocrisy is just so astoundingly obvious that I just cannot believe that the Christians themselves fail to see it. After all, how can any Christian whinge over atheists trying to push their "Atheist Concept and Worldview" onto others when Christians have a propaganda hub (a.k.a. church) on every other street corner - and went to great expense to make sure their "re-education centers" were the most prominent buildings in town.
Secondly, perhaps more to the point, atheism doesn't have a unified "concept and worldview" except that all of us, by definition, reject the religious god concepts that believers of all stripes try to foist onto the free-thinkng peoples of the world. We atheists can then add to the list of charges against Christians the seemingly irresistable need to "project" their shortcomings onto atheists. Since Christians under the same denomination do have virtually identical "concepts and worldviews," then it must stand to reason that all atheists must also have identical "concepts and worldviews."
Sorry, but atheism is such a broad issue that it encompasses a massively diverse group of people. Put 10 atheists in a room and, chances are, there will be 10 distinct and unique concepts and worldviews. The only guaranteed agreement among those 10 people will be that there is no god - not until there is sufficient evidence to believe in one.
Things like evolution and the Big Bang are NOT tenats of atheism. Yes, it's true that most atheists do accept evolution and the Big Bang as the best explanations, but it isn't universal. I have met a few atheists who are extremely skeptical of evolution, but that's pretty rare. However, I could argue that the vast majority of atheists also like pizza, but that hardly allows you to assume liking pizza is a tenat of atheism.
Believers like yourself also need to stop defining a religion as any "strongly held belief or opinion." You define religion so broadly that even being a die-hard fan of a football team qualifies as a religion.
Finally, I would ask you to do a simple observation experiment. When you are out and about running errands, at work, in your daily routine, listen to conversations going on around you. In addition, you can do the same thing when watching television or listening to a political speech. Listen and take note of how many times people reference God, Jesus, or make respectful references to prayer, belief, or other religious concepts. Also, take note of how many TV characters outwardly profess to be either Christian or Catholic and spend time on the show engaging in prayer or attending (or talking about) church.
Then ... do the same thing for atheism. Beyond message boards, how often do you hear references to atheism in your day-to-day travels? How often do you see overtly atheist characters on television shows? If you even hear the word "atheism" even once in a week's worth of observation, I will be profoundly amazed.
Thus this misguided and hopelessly erroneous belief that atheists are somehow pushing our so-called "agenda" onto Christians is just the stupidest thing I've heard coming out of the conservative right-wing propaganda aparatus in a very long time. There is a certain penchant for atheists to debate religion with believers on message boards - but in the real world? Not a chance. Atheists risk quite a bit just by admitting they're atheists. Plus far too many Christians think that their religion should be respected no matter what one's beliefs happen to be, and they'll get extremely agitated if you even so much as accidentally suggest that their religion is bogus. Not to mention the reality that atheism doesn't even have a political voice; all we can do is sit back and hope that our elected politicians and appointed supreme court justices put the US Constitution before the Bible when enacting laws. However, it has been demonstrated in recent years that forced adherence to the Bible is slowly winning out over true religious freedom.
Again...you make good points Shirina.
Our last "off topic exchange" didn't survive. Hope you saw my last response...I explained how you had changed my viewpoint.
All you say here is indicative of "The Way it Really Is".
I'm neither Religious or Atheist...so I see it all from the outside. You do give a good general description of the current scene...here in the U.S., anyway.
BUT...if the Atheists are to stay true to their typically stated convictions...they will have to resist becoming much like what they often protest. That will be easier said than done. "Fighting fire with fire" is known to be effective for many things. This board is a micro example of this phenomenon.
Time will tell how it all turns out.
Why label the feelings I have for Cabernet Sauvignon from Red Mountain Washington "love" knowing the term carries with it a massive baggage train? Why label the sight the sunset over the mountains as "beauty" when I use the same word to describe the ideas of Alan Watts and the backside of porn star Riley Reid?
It may carry "baggage" to you, but that's it. I hate family, but if someone says their friends are "like family" I wouldn't bother worrying about the baggage attached to that term.
Love and beauty are correct expressions in the situations you mentioned. Do you have "God" for your parents? No, love is perfectly described and uncontroversial, experienced by all I've ever heard of. If you worship reality you don't worship abrahamic God
Last edited by LuminousTruth; 12-07-2013 at 07:24 PM..
You make it sound like it's MY fault that religion (Christianity, specifically) is so prevalent in this country
I was commenting on how much you post about religion vs. how much you post about stamp collecting. And how that huge disparity makes it obvious that your comparison of the two is disingenuous.
I was commenting on how much you post about religion vs. how much you post about stamp collecting. And how that huge disparity makes it obvious that your comparison of the two is disingenuous.
Well...being that this is a Religion Forum...it would figure I would post about that.
I'm sure there are those that post on a jillion different forums, about a jillion different things.
The oft proffered No God Crew analogy of--Atheism is to Religion as Not Collecting Stamps is to Hobby...is the comparison that has the disingenuous component.
As I've said...Not Collecting Stamps isn't a hobby, if you merely don't collect stamps.
BUT...if you spend more time getting on the case of, or complaining about, people who do collect stamps, then the people who collect stamps spend collecting...then you have turned Not Collecting Stamps into a hobby.
If all Atheists did was merely not believe that God(s) exist...then it certainly wouldn't equate to a religion.
The issue I have, is with the, "What?!! Who, me?!! I'm Atheist, and that is nothing more than non-belief in Deities!", proclamations...from those that have been on forums like this for years, put up thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of posts, criticizing and even mocking & insulting an opposing viewpoint, while at the same time going on, and on, and on, about the superior virtues of their own viewpoint...with "reps" back and forth to others that post in agreement. Even claiming that to hold the opposing viewpoint is tantamount to being delusional...anyone teaching it to their children should be arrested and prosecuted for abuse...and even go so far as to say the opposing viewpoint is "the greatest ever threat to mankind".
Some here belong to organized groups that publicly promote the Atheist concept, even to the degree of helping found organizations of that nature on a national level.
My point is not about how or why Atheists don't embrace the opposing view...but how they hold and promote their own views.
Don't try to feign mere disconnection to the opposing concept...and claim that is all it is.
If you are going to come to the table and play cards--Make your call...Bet your hand...and then lay it out on the table for everyone to see. If you win the pot--you win the pot...if you don't--you don't. But don't show up to play every day for years upon years...and then claim not to hold an intense and arduously focused (read: religiously held) interest in it.
You know how much I love it when you guys break out that ridiculous analogy of "Atheism is a Religion as much as Not Collecting Stamps is a Hobby"?
I posted this before to address the matter...it is applicable here now as well. Remember it?:
As respects "Not Collecting Stamps" being a hobby: Not necessarily...if they merely didn't collect stamps.
BUT!...if they went on stamp-collecting forums and put up thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of posts criticizing them for being into stamps and saying things like, "You idiot! You paid how much for that?! It's just a page of perforated paper with ink on the front and dry adhesive on the back! How ignorant can you be?! Hope you get thousands of dollars of enjoyment looking at it!"(add smacking-head Smiley)...THEN you most certainly would have the hobby (could even be called the "religion") of not-collecting stamps.
When the "No God Crew" quits pretending not to understand the "religion" aspect of what they are doing...and has the guts to cop to it when they try to push their "Atheist Concept and Worldview" harder than Geico pushes its insurance...then it might enable an honest and open discussion.
But it's kinda a "Catch-22" for me...because I would never want them to actually stop with the snark and the (usually lame and childish, but comical) attempt at insults. It would create a terrible "Amusement Deficit" if they ever did.
Wrong yet again, Glnrule. In fact stamp collectors and people of all pursuits do engage in rather inappropriately furious debate about their subject. One might call it an obsession, even an iconic pursuit and the most important thing in their life. But 'religion' is stretching the mataphor too much, especially if 'religion' is used in a very specific sense, when talking about organized churches and god -claims.
So your argument or analogy only works, if the stamp collectors were actively campaigning against persons not connected with philately who were trying to stop them collecting, getting stamps banned because of some Holy Book saying they are an abomination (while using the specious pretext of health hazards of licking the backs of stamps) and even suggesting that collectors were not fit to hold political office or be citizens.
Then the philatelists would be as furiously combatative as we militant atheists are, and for an equally good reason - that they are being treated unfairly by a larger group with some daft and irrational ideas about stamps, quite apart from the need to put such daft ideas right.
THEN your analogy would work, but it would then only support atheism, not tear it down. As I say, wrong yet again. Do you really not know how to construct a sound argument, or are you continually hoping to bamboozle us into swallowing an unsound one?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
In fact stamp collectors and people of all pursuits do engage in rather inappropriately furious debate about their subject. One might call it an obsession, even an iconic pursuit and the most important thing in their life. But 'religion' is stretching the mataphor too much, especially if 'religion' is used in a very specific sense, when talking about organized churches and god -claims.