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Of course god changes. Let's see, we have had Mazda, Ra, Thor, Hercules, Yahweh, Chaac, and a plethora of others.
Yup, gods change all the time.
Even the Biblegod changes throughout the Old Testament - for those who pay attention to the literary style and "character development" rather than going brain dead because, wow, it's God!
For instance, God seems more limited, more "human" in Genesis.
Genesis 3:8, Adam and Eve literally HEARD God walking through the garden in the cool of the day. Okay, I guess he's God. Yeah, he COULD take a physical stroll through Eden if he really wanted to. But does this kind of physicality sound AT ALL like the later God of the Old Testament?
Still in Genesis 3:8, Adam is all scared because of his nakedness and hides in the bushes. And in Genesis 3:9, God calls out to Adam, "Where art thou?"
Well God, why not use those powers of omniscience and find him yourself? Truly weird behavior from an all-powerful God that throws hissies for even hinting at disobeying him. Yet here he is acting coy. Because it gets worse...
Adam admits that he's naked ... and God, in Genesis 3:11 says, 'Who told thee that thou wast naked?'
I mean, God seems genuinely baffled ... like he's thinking "double-u, tee, eff! What did they just do?!?"
And God then continues, 'Hast thou eaten from the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?'
Well ... it's a good thing God isn't working for MY local police department given that his omniscient powers of observation just aren't all that well-honed. Seriously, God acts confused - like he doesn't really understand what happened and instead has to ask these "duh!" type questions.
But that isn't the only time this weirdness happens.
In Genesis 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother is. Duh! You mean God doesn't know?
But then in Genesis 4:10, God says he can hear Abel's blood crying to him from the ground. Ah, so now God has LIMITED omnscience. He knows something is afoot but can't quite put his finger on it. So he has to play these games with Cain to figure out what's going on.
Compare this behavior of God to later on in the Old Testament and you can see a marked change.
Yes God changes as is clear by his act of creation. If God is eternal and the creation is ontologically separate from God then there was a point in the mind of God that his will was not to create and that will changed so as to create - in fact thinking presupposes change. The only reason any creature acts in the first place is because they are dissatisfied with the present circumstances they find themselves in otherwise they would not act to affect those circumstances and change them. Now if God's will was always to create the universe then the universe would have been created an eternity ago since that will is eternal and would have been acted upon from eternity past. So what changed in the mind of God that at one point he did not want to create and at another he did so as to render the universe non-eternal?
See God does change.
that's interesting.
Last edited by Sophronius; 09-26-2014 at 12:39 AM..
Actually...no. This thread started with the OP attempting to state God was immoral. I'm merely pointing out that without an objective morality, one is unable to judge another human being, much less the one that created that human being.
Actually..... yes. You are attempting to suggest your moral system is somehow more objective, less subjective, than the atheist one.
And once again: Even if we imagine there is a god..... something you have failed to even attempt to substantiation on this forum ever...... and that there is an objective morality..... again something you have utterly and comically failed to establish......... then your attempts to interpret and understand and espouse it...... is just as subjective as anyone elses morality on this thread.
And once again: Even if we imagine there is a god..... something you have failed to even attempt to substantiation on this forum ever...... and that there is an objective morality..... again something you have utterly and comically failed to establish......... then your attempts to interpret and understand and espouse it...... is just as subjective as anyone elses morality on this thread.
"
Vizio asks a lot of questions, but doesn't answer any. It must make for an interesting conversation at the Vizio house. I image it runs something like this.
Door opens and closes
Vizio: who's there?
Vizio spouse: how do you know somebody is here?
V: why are you here?
VS: you can't prove I'm here, it's just your opinion.
[quote]
Science can 'inform' us regarding the circumstances at play regarding our
existence and that which is helpful and beneficial for it.
Evidence that can be pointed to?? I don't see a thing anything of that as it approaches studying morality. Truly if you suggest it 'informs' it is absolutely no different than theological/religious investigation on the issue. And anyway if science gets involved in moral questions it will be a focus based on rigourous materialist philosopy which is subscribed to by the the a-theistic approach.
Actually..... yes. You are attempting to suggest your moral system is somehow more objective, less subjective, than the atheist one.
I'm saying that without an objective one, you have no reasonable basis for judging morality. And I'm still waiting for a coherent argument to explain otherwise. It's been well over 100 pages. The best you've got is societal consensus. Yet...with such a thing we have society telling us slavery, cannibalism, rape, murder, genocide, etc are appropriate.
Quote:
And once again: Even if we imagine there is a god..... something you have failed to even attempt to substantiation on this forum ever...... and that there is an objective morality..... again something you have utterly and comically failed to establish......... then your attempts to interpret and understand and espouse it...... is just as subjective as anyone elses morality on this thread.
"Or did that just go over your head?"
It's amazing that you suggest I cannot interpret God's morality, or claim to understand what he expects of us (if, as you say, he exists)....yet the extremely silly part of this whole debate is that the OP started the stupid thread in order to try to suggest that said God is immoral. Now...if I can't understand God's morality....how is it possible for you to say he is immoral?
Vizio asks a lot of questions, but doesn't answer any. It must make for an interesting conversation at the Vizio house. I image it runs something like this.
That's because my goal on this thread is not to provide answers as much as it is to expose the massively gaping holes in the atheist position on morality. It's very telling that rather than actually engage the debate, you have now run out of answers and instead just do ad hominems and strawman arguments.
Compare this behavior of God to later on in the Old Testament and you can see a marked change.
That those changes exist, and that the Hebrew/christian god-thing is a man-made creation is not in dispute.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
Can you provide an example?
Are you for real?
It never fails to amaze me that people "read" and "study" (I use the terms loosely) the "bible" but cannot comprehend what the read.
Yahweh inflicts punishment by murdering people.
Why?
Because there is no after-life.
If Yahweh wants to punish you, then he must do so in the here-and-now, because once you die, you are beyond his control.
The Hebrews have no concept of an after-life, because they are Canaanite of Akkadian origin.
The Hebrews do not acquire the concept of an after-life until they come into contact with Greek civilization and get contaminated centuries later.
The differently twisted irony here, is that the Greeks develop the concept of Hell after misinterpreting Akkadian texts.....the very same Akkadian texts the Hebrews used to plagiarize their pre-historical mythology.
Then Yahweh becomes enlightened and stops murdering people, and starts punishing the whole Hebrew nation with wars, famine, plagues and captivity, for the sins of just one Hebrew.
Why?
Again, because there is no after-life.
If Yahweh wants to punish you, then he must do so in the here-and-now, because once you die, you are beyond his control.
Then the evolving Yahweh has an epiphany and stops the mass punishment and starts rewarding or punishing individuals for their faithfulness, usually through wealth or poverty and sometimes good health or bad health (rather than death).
Once again, this is due to the indisputable fact that the Hebrews have not yet come into contact with Greek culture and therefore have no concept of an after-life.
However, the light-bulb in Yahweh's brain dims and he reverts to mass punishment retroactively for the sins of individuals who are long since dead.
Right?
Josiah, the most righteous king ever, who did "good" in the eyes of Yahweh, takes an arrow through the neck, falls off his chariot, gets stomped and his broken dead body is paraded around by the Egyptians, then the Kingdom of Judah is destroyed and the Hebrews enslaved or exiled (or both).
And whose fault was that?
But, of course! The evil wicked King Manasseh who did "bad" in the eyes of Yahweh, and yet had the most peaceful, most prosperous kingdom ever in Hebrew history.
You have read Deuteronomy, haven't you?
Finally, Yahweh gets his first glimpse of common sense and starts meting out mass punishment based on not whether the Hebrews are faithful and love him, but rather if the Hebrews are taking care of the widows, orphans, the sick, ie "social welfare" as evidenced by the so-called "latter prophets."
Deuteronomy is a good book to study, because you can see even more evolution of the Hebrew religion.
The means and methods of sacrifices are changed. Hebrews no longer have to hack up a defenseless animal and wavy the bloody bits around, they just have to go straight away to burning them, because apparently Yahweh grew tiresome of the waving of the bloody bits thing.
The only authorized altar is now in Jerusalem. No more local altars. In the previous chapters, the Patriarchs constructed an altar where ever they were and hacked up an animal and waved the hacked up bits around to a glowing Yahweh with that warm fuzzy tingling feeling.
What do we have here? The complete centralization of religious authority. there is only one altar, and to do a sacrifice, you must travel to Jerusalem and pay the toll, and then pay the fees at the Jerusalem altar.
Talk about an ingenious way to increase tax revenues. Just think of the spur in the local economy of Jerusalem with the Hebrews coming in from other cities and staying at inns and buying food and drink, and of course, shopping in the shoppes.
Lots of other really radical changes in Judaism at that time.
The main point is that Yahweh changed his mind.
Yahweh thought altars-a-plenty was a good thing, and then he decided that only one altar was necessary.
The way Yahweh changes his mind so much, I wonder if he isn't really a woman after all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
It was a set of commands given to a specific group of people living in a certain circumstance, at a certain time. And no--objective does not mean that every human being must adhere to that covenant.
Yes, it does.
It also demonstrates that Yahweh is biased and prejudiced -- traits benevolent beings do not possess.
Yahweh also displays extreme racial bigotry and racism -- again, traits that benevolent beings do not possess.
Behaviorally....
That those changes exist, and that the Hebrew/christian god-thing is a man-made creation is not in dispute.
Are you for real?
It never fails to amaze me that people "read" and "study" (I use the terms loosely) the "bible" but cannot comprehend what the read.
Yahweh inflicts punishment by murdering people.
Why?
Actually...he inflicts punishment by killing. There is a difference.
Quote:
Because there is no after-life.
If Yahweh wants to punish you, then he must do so in the here-and-now, because once you die, you are beyond his control.
Or...he kills you and then deals with you in the afterlife.
Quote:
The Hebrews have no concept of an after-life, because they are Canaanite of Akkadian origin.
The Hebrews do not acquire the concept of an after-life until they come into contact with Greek civilization and get contaminated centuries later.
Yet, King David himself said that he'd see his child again after death. Imagine that.
The differently twisted irony here, is that the Greeks develop the concept of Hell after misinterpreting Akkadian texts.....the very same Akkadian texts the Hebrews used to plagiarize their pre-historical mythology.
Then Yahweh becomes enlightened and stops murdering people, and starts punishing the whole Hebrew nation with wars, famine, plagues and captivity, for the sins of just one Hebrew.
Why?
Jesus talked about that. He told a parable of a man whose enemy sewed weeds in his field. Rather than pulling up the crops and taking good with bad, he said to wait till harvest and separate the good and bad. God will judge.
Quote:
Josiah, the most righteous king ever, who did "good" in the eyes of Yahweh, takes an arrow through the neck, falls off his chariot, gets stomped and his broken dead body is paraded around by the Egyptians, then the Kingdom of Judah is destroyed and the Hebrews enslaved or exiled (or both).
And whose fault was that?
Ultimately? God ordained it. He is sovereign.
[/quote]
But, of course! The evil wicked King Manasseh who did "bad" in the eyes of Yahweh, and yet had the most peaceful, most prosperous kingdom ever in Hebrew history.
[/quote]
And he will get what's coming to him.
Quote:
You have read Deuteronomy, haven't you?
Finally, Yahweh gets his first glimpse of common sense and starts meting out mass punishment based on not whether the Hebrews are faithful and love him, but rather if the Hebrews are taking care of the widows, orphans, the sick, ie "social welfare" as evidenced by the so-called "latter prophets."
Deuteronomy is a good book to study, because you can see even more evolution of the Hebrew religion.
The means and methods of sacrifices are changed. Hebrews no longer have to hack up a defenseless animal and wavy the bloody bits around, they just have to go straight away to burning them, because apparently Yahweh grew tiresome of the waving of the bloody bits thing.
The only authorized altar is now in Jerusalem. No more local altars. In the previous chapters, the Patriarchs constructed an altar where ever they were and hacked up an animal and waved the hacked up bits around to a glowing Yahweh with that warm fuzzy tingling feeling.
What do we have here? The complete centralization of religious authority. there is only one altar, and to do a sacrifice, you must travel to Jerusalem and pay the toll, and then pay the fees at the Jerusalem altar.
Talk about an ingenious way to increase tax revenues. Just think of the spur in the local economy of Jerusalem with the Hebrews coming in from other cities and staying at inns and buying food and drink, and of course, shopping in the shoppes.
Lots of other really radical changes in Judaism at that time.
The main point is that Yahweh changed his mind.
Yes--the method of worship changed. His nature did not change. As people became more numerous, it wasn't good for each family to have an altar. But God's nature did not change.
Quote:
Yes, it does.
It also demonstrates that Yahweh is biased and prejudiced -- traits benevolent being do not possess.
Why? A benevolent God cannot be merciful unless he is merciful to all?
Quote:
Yahweh also displays extreme racial bigotry and racism -- again, traits that benevolent beings do not possess.
Behaviorally....
Mircea
Where? Can you show me an example?
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