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We all deserve to go to hell, but God in His grace and love sent Jesus to die on the cross to take our place.
We all deserve to go to hell?? What for?? Do you really really believe that we all DESERVE to be burned forever and forever without dying?? Thats like saying our children DESERVE to be put on a spit and roasted in front of our fire. But we dont do it because someone elses child died for them... WTF? No matter what my child did, I would not want to dole out that punishment to him. And if he was a good child that occasionally got into trouble, I am sure that any reasonable person would agree with me that thinking he DESERVED that punishment would be have some sort of mental problem.
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It's God's opinion that counts
According to the Bible we were created in Gods image. Which means he created us with HIS attributes...love and yes justice. He put HIS sense of justice within us. Which is why I CAN say that torturing someone forever in burning flames is out of all proportion to whatever crime anyone committed on earth. And that the vast majority that are lined up for going there have not committed anything worse than not recognizing the insecure, dictator of the OT, because it offends their innate sense of justice, is a monstrous crime.... far worse than the holocaust.
IT IS frightening to think that people would be happy if God sent all these non-believers to hell as soon as they died. Not too distant from the Muslim extremists who just want to give Allah a little help with dispatching the infidels from this planet while they are still alive.
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I believe there has been provision made for all those millions people love to bring up who have supposedly not heard the name Jesus.
So I would have been far better off NOT KNOWING about Jesus, having spent 40 years of my life trying to serve him, having asked many times in sincere prayer, for him to 'come into my heart' (the magic words) and.... nothing. Even when I was going through a breakdown and could not help myself, God was not there for me. I wish personally that I had never heard of Jesus and all these people in his little club. Then at least I might have a chance. ( That is sarcasm, by the way, because I dont believe in a fiery hell anyway. There is no such thing)
Even if people have heard of Jesus, if they have been brought up as a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist and they sincerely believe they have the right religion, why on earth should they listen to someone talking about Jesus?? Would you want someone preaching to you about Allah?
And. yes,I have seen many Christians on TV and on these boards, talk about hell with the same casualness as if they were talking about someone getting slapped on the wrist. Scary is all I can say.
All I want to say regarding this, Ringwielder, is that I don't think any Christian on this forum has a casual attitude about hell. We are discussing it here a lot as a point of doctrine. If, in the meantime, that comes off as casual, I'm sorry. I truly don't feel like that is the attitude of anyone here that I'm aware of. Actually, the horror of it is something that most of us probably don't want to dwell on for very long. But that doesn't mean we don't believe it or that we have a casual attitude about it. Not by a long shot.
We all deserve to go to hell?? What for?? Do you really really believe that we all DESERVE to be burned forever and forever without dying?? Thats like saying our children DESERVE to be put on a spit and roasted in front of our fire. But we dont do it because someone elses child died for them... WTF? No matter what my child did, I would not want to dole out that punishment to him. And if he was a good child that occasionally got into trouble, I am sure that any reasonable person would agree with me that thinking he DESERVED that punishment would be have some sort of mental problem.
According to the Bible we were created in Gods image. Which means he created us with HIS attributes...love and yes justice. He put HIS sense of justice within us. Which is why I CAN say that torturing someone forever in burning flames is out of all proportion to whatever crime anyone committed on earth. And that the vast majority that are lined up for going there have not committed anything worse than not recognizing the insecure, dictator of the OT, because it offends their innate sense of justice, is a monstrous crime.... far worse than the holocaust.
IT IS frightening to think that people would be happy if God sent all these non-believers to hell as soon as they died. Not too distant from the Muslim extremists who just want to give Allah a little help with dispatching the infidels from this planet while they are still alive.
So I would have been far better off NOT KNOWING about Jesus, having spent 40 years of my life trying to serve him, having asked many times in sincere prayer, for him to 'come into my heart' (the magic words) and.... nothing. Even when I was going through a breakdown and could not help myself, God was not there for me. I wish personally that I had never heard of Jesus and all these people in his little club. Then at least I might have a chance. ( That is sarcasm, by the way, because I dont believe in a fiery hell anyway. There is no such thing)
Even if people have heard of Jesus, if they have been brought up as a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist and they sincerely believe they have the right religion, why on earth should they listen to someone talking about Jesus?? Would you want someone preaching to you about Allah?
And. yes,I have seen many Christians on TV and on these boards, talk about hell with the same casualness as if they were talking about someone getting slapped on the wrist. Scary is all I can say.
Why do we deserve hell? Because of sin. Romans 3:23-24 "For all have sinned and fall short of God's glorious standard. Yet now God in His gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins".
God is Holy and cannot look at sin, we cannot save ourselves we needed a Savior that's why Jesus came.
Hi, eternal or everlasting hell, I believe is incompatible with agape love which does what is best for those who are loved. All people are the offspring of God and Jesus taught us to love our enemies, to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Perfect love does not equal hate or never ending hate. It doesn't fit. Many times the chosen people of God experienced His judgments but His mercy was there when they turned back. I believe that the judgments of God have a higher purpose. I don't believe that God who knows all hearts is unable to convince all of their need for Him. And I believe the Bible too! God bless.
I don't like to be a nooge, but I once again respectfully disagree. Not everyone is a child of God. This is clear from the scriptures. John 1:11-13 basically says only those who accept Jesus can claim the title child of God. Jesus himself spoke of people being of their father, the devil in John 8:42-47.
Am I going to be dogmatic about an eternal hellfire? Not necessarily. I do, however, believe there is eternal separation from God for people that choose to reject Jesus. This is not hate, from my perspective. Hate would be forcing someone to love you and stay with you when that person has said they don't believe in you and want nothing to do with you and don't believe you exist. I believe God will abide by everyone's choice, for those who make one. Does that mean God is not all powerful or that God has failed in some respects? No! God will reconcile His children to himself. Who are they? Those who can be called a child of God. Who are children of God? Those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. It's not a popular view. You don't have to agree with me. But throughout scripture it is clear this is what God's word states and I do believe in God's word.
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown Hi, eternal or everlasting hell, I believe is incompatible with agape love which does what is best for those who are loved. All people are the offspring of God and Jesus taught us to love our enemies, to be perfect as the Father is perfect. Perfect love does not equal hate or never ending hate. It doesn't fit. Many times the chosen people of God experienced His judgments but His mercy was there when they turned back. I believe that the judgments of God have a higher purpose. I don't believe that God who knows all hearts is unable to convince all of their need for Him. And I believe the Bible too! God bless.
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I don't like to be a nooge, but I once again respectfully disagree. Not everyone is a child of God. This is clear from the scriptures. John 1:11-13 basically says only those who accept Jesus can claim the title child of God. Jesus himself spoke of people being of their father, the devil in John 8:42-47.
Hi Mams, in Paul's address to the Athenians, he speaks of all being the offspring of God and Paul was an apostle. I didn't make this up (Acts 17:29)
Acts 17
22. Then Paul stood in front of the Areopagus and said, "Athenians, I see how extremely religious you are in every way.23. For as I went through the city and looked carefully at the objects of your worship, I found among them an altar with the inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you.24. The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands,25. nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things.26. From one ancestor he made all nations to inhabit the whole earth, and he allotted the times of their existence and the boundaries of the places where they would live, 27. so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him-- though indeed he is not far from each one of us.28. For 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we too are his offspring.'29. Since we are God's offspring, we ought not to think that the deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of mortals.
We refers to all people. So yes, I believe that all people are the offspring of God. The scriptures tell me this. Believers do have a different relationship with God and are called the children or sons of God. We have been born of His Spirit and are the body of Christ.
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Am I going to be dogmatic about an eternal hellfire? Not necessarily. I do, however, believe there is eternal separation from God for people that choose to reject Jesus. This is not hate, from my perspective. Hate would be forcing someone to love you and stay with you when that person has said they don't believe in you and want nothing to do with you and don't believe you exist. I believe God will abide by everyone's choice, for those who make one. Does that mean God is not all powerful or that God has failed in some respects? No! God will reconcile His children to himself. Who are they? Those who can be called a child of God. Who are children of God? Those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. It's not a popular view. You don't have to agree with me. But throughout scripture it is clear this is what God's word states and I do believe in God's word.
In the Christian scriptures, God has declared that all will be subjected to Him and that all will confess Him, give praise to Him and bow before Him. This includes all people, all of His offspring, not a select few. Is this hate, this subjection of all to Him? Evidently, someone's choices will change. Somebody's will is Sovereign over everyone else's. He is able to subdueall things to Himself. (Philippians 3:21) Would you call this hate? Does He not have this right as God of all, as the Creator of all?
I believe that the scriptures teach that the lost are lost, blinded, held captive, sick, in need of a Savior and God has the remedy. I don't believe that He will withhold the remedy. A blind person needs help and Jesus was sent to set the captives free and open the eyes of the blind. People do not believe, want nothing to do with God, don't believe that He exists because they have been blinded. They are lost. Someone who is held captive is not a free person. The only freedom we have is in Jesus Christ. And the True Light which enlightens every man has come into the world according to the apostle John. (John 1)
This subjection of all to Him that He may be all in all (1 Corin. 15) - I don't call that hate God is doing what is best for us. We were created for Him and we can only be truly happy, fulfilled, complete in Him. Without Him, we are lost. Sin destroys men's lives. They aren't free. Jesus Himself said that He would draw all men to Himself (John 8:32) Is this drawing some kind of force? Is this to be described as hate? I don't believe so.
All things were made for Jesus Christ our Lord according to the Christian scriptures. It was God's good pleasureto reconcile all to Himself according to Colossians 1. All were created through and for Christ and it was God's good pleasure to reconcile the same all to Himself. It's right there. I didn't make it up. I believe God's word also, Mams. Thanks a lot and God bless you.
I don't like to be a nooge, but I once again respectfully disagree. Not everyone is a child of God. This is clear from the scriptures. John 1:11-13 basically says only those who accept Jesus can claim the title child of God. Jesus himself spoke of people being of their father, the devil in John 8:42-47.
Am I going to be dogmatic about an eternal hellfire? Not necessarily. I do, however, believe there is eternal separation from God for people forcing someone to love you and stay with you when that person has said they don't believe in you and want nothing to do with you and don't believe you exist. I believe God will abide by everyone's choice, for those who make one. Does that mean God is not all powerful or that God has failed in some respects? No! God will reconcile His children to himself. Who are they? Those who can be called a child of God. Who are children of God? Those who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. It's not a popular view. You don't have to agree with me. But throughout scripture it is clear this is what God's word states and I do believe in God's word.
I have to say "ditto" to all that mams posted here. I also am not dogmatic about hell necessarily being a literal fire, but as he said, I do believe that the Bible teaches an eternal separation from God and whatever that all implies.
For an excellent discussion about the doctrine of hell and trying to come to some understanding of it, I would recommend Lee Stroebel's book Case for Faith. One chapter in it deals with trying to understand the topic in an extensive way. Undoubtedly, it is a "problem issue" for many people, Ringwielder. I will grant you that. In fact, many moons ago, when I was in my twenties, I went through a period where I had a real problem with it. But I learned to trust God's mercy, since as you also pointed out -it was He who gave me my own sense of mercy. Is the creation more merciful than the Creator? That, however, doesn't mean we can discount hell just because we don't understand it. Whatever it is, the Bible teaches the existence of it. And at the end of the day, I DO trust what the Bible says above my own understanding.
I have to say "ditto" to all that mams posted here. I also am not dogmatic about hell necessarily being a literal fire, but as he said, I do believe that the Bible teaches an eternal separation from God and whatever that all implies.
For an excellent discussion about the doctrine of hell and trying to come to some understanding of it, I would recommend Lee Stroebel's book Case for Faith. One chapter in it deals with trying to understand the topic in an extensive way. Undoubtedly, it is a "problem issue" for many people, Ringwielder. I will grant you that. In fact, many moons ago, when I was in my twenties, I went through a period where I had a real problem with it. But I learned to trust God's mercy, since as you also pointed out -it was He who gave me my own sense of mercy. Is the creation more merciful than the Creator? That, however, doesn't mean we can discount hell just because we don't understand it. Whatever it is, the Bible teaches the existence of it. And at the end of the day, I DO trust what the Bible says above my own understanding.
We all deserve to go to hell?? What for?? Do you really really believe that we all DESERVE to be burned forever and forever without dying?? Thats like saying our children DESERVE to be put on a spit and roasted in front of our fire. But we dont do it because someone elses child died for them... WTF? No matter what my child did, I would not want to dole out that punishment to him. And if he was a good child that occasionally got into trouble, I am sure that any reasonable person would agree with me that thinking he DESERVED that punishment would be have some sort of mental problem.
Again with mental problems?? Yes, we all deserve death. Death is the punishment for sin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Therefore all deserve death. What is death? Death is eternal separation from God. Whether in flames or not, it's still not something pleasant.
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Originally Posted by Ringwielder
According to the Bible we were created in Gods image. Which means he created us with HIS attributes...love and yes justice. He put HIS sense of justice within us. Which is why I CAN say that torturing someone forever in burning flames is out of all proportion to whatever crime anyone committed on earth. And that the vast majority that are lined up for going there have not committed anything worse than not recognizing the insecure, dictator of the OT, because it offends their innate sense of justice, is a monstrous crime.... far worse than the holocaust.
But you say we don't deserve it because we didn't do something "bad enough". Whose standard do we use to judge whether our sin is "bad enough"? Yes, we have a sense of justice, but our sense is clouded by our sinful natures. Of course guilty people will rationalize or minimize their actions and deserved consequences. However, God is perfect and holy and just. We are not. God's sense of justice is different than ours. In God's eyes all sin is sin and is an afront to Him. God cannot look upon sin, any sin. You may not think rejecting His sacrifice is bad enough to warrant eternal separation, but apparently God does. He tells us this much in scripture.
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Originally Posted by Ringwielder
IT IS frightening to think that people would be happy if God sent all these non-believers to hell as soon as they died. Not too distant from the Muslim extremists who just want to give Allah a little help with dispatching the infidels from this planet while they are still alive.
I'm not happy that any non-believer would be separated from God. Why do you think there are missionaries going out into all the world to spread the gospel of Jesus? It is not God's will that anyone who doesn't believe be killed on the spot. We are to show Christ's love through us so others may come to know Him as well. Killing someone because they don't believe as I do is preposterous and goes completely against God and His word.
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Originally Posted by Ringwielder
So I would have been far better off NOT KNOWING about Jesus, having spent 40 years of my life trying to serve him, having asked many times in sincere prayer, for him to 'come into my heart' (the magic words) and.... nothing. Even when I was going through a breakdown and could not help myself, God was not there for me. I wish personally that I had never heard of Jesus and all these people in his little club. Then at least I might have a chance. ( That is sarcasm, by the way, because I dont believe in a fiery hell anyway. There is no such thing)
Maybe I didn't make myself completely clear. No, you're not better off never hearing of Jesus. However, I have come to believe that those who others bring up as never having a chance to know about Jesus will still be judged, but by a different measure. Read Romans chapter 2. Here's a brief snippet from that chapter:
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Also, Romans 1:18-20 -- 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
So clearly, those who have not specifically heard the gospel will still be judged because a) they're without excuse and b) the law has been written on their hearts. It will just be by a different measure than those who have heard and yet still reject Jesus.
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Originally Posted by Ringwielder
Even if people have heard of Jesus, if they have been brought up as a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist and they sincerely believe they have the right religion, why on earth should they listen to someone talking about Jesus?? Would you want someone preaching to you about Allah?
Because the person sharing the word does not convince the listener, God does. It is God, through the Holy Spirit, that convicts those that have heard the gospel. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. If one hears, it is no longer up to the speaker to convince them of the truth. God is truth and so is His word. The Holy Spirit will convict those who wish to know the truth. If they hear and do not want to believe or seek further knowledge, that is their choice.
Jesus stands at the door and knocks... it is up to us to open the door and let Him in. Fear of eternal separation/hellfire should not be the impetus for our salvation, but rather the love God has for us. So much love He died for us so we could be with Him forever.
Again with mental problems?? Yes, we all deserve death. Death is the punishment for sin. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
So a crack baby fully deserved to be born addicted to crack? The mother is in no way responsible for the condition of her newborn? The sins of the parents automatically become the sins of their children?
Originally Posted by mams1559 So a crack baby fully deserved to be born addicted to crack? The mother is in no way responsible for the condition of her newborn? The sins of the parents automatically become the sins of their children?
No, the baby does not deserve to be born addicted to crack and yes the mother is responsible. Sin has ugly consequences, sometimes the innocent pay a higher price than one who sins. Sin has a ripple effect.
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God bless.
So a crack baby fully deserved to be born addicted to crack? The mother is in no way responsible for the condition of her newborn?
The sins of the parents automatically become the sins of their children?
