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what did Jesus say about himself?
The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59
"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33)
And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness." John 12:44-46
Matthew 26:39: "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
Jesus prayed to himself? Why?
In John 20:17 we read: "Jesus saith unto her, ...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."
Not only is God Jesus' father, but He is also his GOD. Think about this carefully. Also notice how Jesus is equating between himself and mankind in these matters and not between himself and God. He is making it as clear as he possibly can that he is one of US and not a god. Why did he not just say "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father ." ... and stop !?
Why did Jesus feel it necessary to add the words "...and to my God, and your God."
Okay, If Jesus and God are two distinct gods and one is greater than the other ("my Father is greater than I" John 14:28) then this contradicts such verses as Isaiah 43:10-11 and the very definition of the "Trinity" which includes the words: "..Co-equality.." in it's definition'
".......It is difficult in the second half of the 20th century to offer a clear, objective and straightforward account of the revelation, doctrinal evolution, and theological elaboration of the Mystery of the trinity. Trinitarian discussion, Roman Catholic as well as other, present a somewhat unsteady silhouette. Two things have happened. There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought ... it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development"[/SIZE][SIZE=3] (emphasis added).
"The New Catholic Encyclopedia," Volume XIV, p. 295
They admit it!!! Jesus (pbuh), John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, all of the apostles, and even Paul, were completely unaware of any "Trinity." !!
People on both sides of the argument can throw scriptures by the bucketload at it, which is why I dont believe in the Bible. It is so confusing and unclear. Why could the Bible not have come out and said clearly what the nature of God is, Jesus, the Holy Ghost...but no, it has to be so ambiguous and 'mysterious' that it has caused Christians to kill each other for centuries because all their 1000's of sects cant agree on what it damn well says. Its crazy!
And I tried to steer the subject away from the Trinity, but I guess it was too much of a red rag to make the statement that Jesus is not God..lol
It is important not be confused. God did not create Jesus. Jesus is God, and he has always existed.
Unfortunately, it is confusing, both to Christians and non-Christians, no matter how one looks at it. Believers cannot truly explain the Trinity in a way that actually makes sense. Christians may accept it on faith, which is fine, but the average non-believer, in particular, is going to be quite confused at hearing the doctrine that Jesus is God's son, and yet he, (Jesus), is also God. It would be as though I made a statement that I am my mother's daughter, but I am also my mother. Other than the faith factor, there really isn't a logical way around this confusion, and even most Christians, if they are being gut-honest, have to admit to that.
And, just to bring it back to the OP, I don't believe in an eternal hell; I haven't for a number of years. An eternal hell is not compatible, with an all-loving God; it isn't even logical, in my opinion. To believe in punishment, (or discipline), in and of itself, is logical enough; we, as loving parents, punish our children, for corrective purposes, if they get out of line. But, if we continually and horribly punished them, society would rightfully say that we were wrong, and would probably take our children away from us. Curious that we, as flawed humans, understand this difference, yet we would attibute such awful behaviour to our Creator. We actually believe, (collectively-speaking) that, due our interpretation of scripture, (a very telling point), God would purposely, horribly, continously, and eternally punish people, simply for the "act" of non-belief, with separation and fire, no less! Yet, he himself, told the Israelites, in the OT, that they should not follow their neighbors' example of sacrificing their children in the fire. In fact, I think he even called it an abomination. Yet, we say that this is the very punishment that he uses, and not just as a one-time thing, but forever! "Curiouser and curiouser", I believe is how Alice put it.
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA The problem is that this 'us' doesn't exclude other non-Christian gods who are older than Christianity or Judaism.
To a Christian ( I can only speak for myself) why bother to mention it in the bible, there are no other gods,no need to exclude what doesnt exist. God..the Christian God, was the one that made the earth, how can one say there were other gods? sure maybe other pagan religions existed at the time of the writing of the bible back then, but to a Christian they were all to false gods.
To a Christian ( I can only speak for myself) why bother to mention it in the bible, there are no other gods,no need to exclude what doesnt exist. God..the Christian God, was the one that made the earth, how can one say there were other gods? sure maybe other pagan religions existed at the time of the writing of the bible back then, but to a Christian they were all to false gods.
True, but at the time the OT was written down by the Jews, there were no Christians. And it also doesn't mean that the OT could be influenced by these other religions. I mean some of the Jews were more than willing to sacrifice to these pagan gods (in the form of golden cows, money etc).
The Bible is clear that hell was not meant for man, but for Lucifer (Satan) and the other fallen angels. People end up in hell because when we reject God we cannot spend eternity with him. Since God is everywhere the only place left is Hell with Satan.
God does not send people to hell, they send themselves by rejecting God.
God does not torture people. It is Satan and his legions who do the torturing. They hate the image of God so much that they will spend eternity torturing it. Man was created in the image of God. So, the people in hell will receive the brunt of Satans Hatred.
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Believers cannot truly explain the Trinity in a way that actually makes sense. Christians may accept it on faith, which is fine, but the average non-believer, in particular, is going to be quite confused at hearing the doctrine that Jesus is God's son, and yet he, (Jesus), is also God. It would be as though I made a statement that I am my mother's daughter, but I am also my mother. Other than the faith factor, there really isn't a logical way around this confusion, and even most Christians, if they are being gut-honest, have to admit to that.
I don't believe in an eternal hell; I haven't for a number of years. An eternal hell is not compatible, with an all-loving God; it isn't even logical, in my opinion. To believe in punishment, (or discipline), in and of itself, is logical enough; we, as loving parents, punish our children, for corrective purposes, if they get out of line. But, if we continually and horribly punished them, society would rightfully say that we were wrong, and would probably take our children away from us. Curious that we, as flawed humans, understand this difference, yet we would attibute such awful behaviour to our Creator. We actually believe, (collectively-speaking) that, due our interpretation of scripture, (a very telling point), God would purposely, horribly, continously, and eternally punish people, simply for the "act" of non-belief, with separation and fire, no less!
Yet, he himself, told the Israelites, in the OT, that they should not follow their neighbors' example of sacrificing their children in the fire. In fact, I think he even called it an abomination. Yet, we say that this is the very punishment that he uses, and not just as a one-time thing, but forever! "Curiouser and curiouser", I believe is how Alice put it.
The problem is that this 'us' doesn't exclude other non-Christian gods who are older than Christianity or Judaism.
