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I think it is safe to assume anyone that is mentally stable would answer yes . To believing in right and wrong.
Which is good , at least we have that in common even tho we may not agree on any specifics .
So my question now is where does this come from ? I am trying to answer this question without a God in the debate .
Laws are made by the masses but why? How? Assuming there is no God and we are an evolving mammal I am trying to figure out where this notion began. When I study history I see laws always had connections with religion, *which according to atheists was a way to control the masses . Which I don't see anything wrong with if there simply animals anyway but we have evolved beyond that I must try to remember .So I study laws and history ,and religion just seems to keep getting in the way .
As far back as I can go in history religion seems to be there every time . I don't understand how this can originate from an unevolve mammal.
Where is the history to prove this theory ? 2000years ago I can study then it becomes vage , the bible goes back another 1000 .
Other history does not go back this
Far . Where is it? *Where did your theory originate? I would have to go back a couple million years to the point where you are a slobbering ape . What happened in the last 300 thousand years? Why is it gone? What took half a million years to make the wheel? Who could brainwash the masses yet couldn't create a cart? Before all these questions you may have said religion has always been there . I would agree with you.
So I think you don't like the control of religion , you are evolving and progressing beyond religion .
*But I have to ask : how is a bunch of male animals humping each others anal and mouth cavities a progression in your eyes? Where does this indicate proggress and evolution,? *You are proving you own theory as insanity . You want to put away with God and in doing so you are truly becoming of an animalistic nature.
Tzap, it seems like you ignored the bulk of my post. I have no issue with what you've said above about our responsibility to break the cycle of abuse, seeking therapy and counseling, actively learning and implementing new behaviors, choosing forgiveness and kindness rather than bitterness and revenge. That's all sound advice but that isn't what my questions were about.
Here they are again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
IF that were true, and it was also true that they needed to be held accountable for teaching you a lesson by, themselves, being taught a lesson by someone else, then the person who taught them a lesson would need to be taught a lesson, etc., etc., etc., how would the cycle ever end?
None of that makes sense.
Tzaph believes in reincarnation, Pleroo. That means that those people being abused now were abusers in a previous life, and so on. But as you correctly point out, there can be no end to the cycle. The abusers who abuse them now will in turn reincarnate to be abused, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
the key piece for me is taking responsibility for everything in my world. Not blame, but responsibility, it is knowing and understanding the difference. if i was a tyrant to my family in a previous life, then it makes sense that i am born into this life and experience violence at the hands of a tyrant. if someone beheads a woman for wearing lipstick, then he gets to come back and experience that so he can learn through his own experience why it is wrong and bad.
do you learn something by reading it in a book, or by experiencing it first hand? do you learn something by someone telling you what not to do or by experiencing the natural consequences yourself? which in your life is the most effective teacher and carries the most weight?
how does it stop? it doesn't feel good to stay stuck in hate and bitterness. when a person is ready they walk into an existence of loving kindness, compassion, and humbleness. that is how it ends or stops, and we get off the wheel of reincarnation.
All learning does NOT need to be experiential, Tzaph. The experiencing of what you sow will be reaped in the next stage when you are "born again" as spirit upon your death. You will have to experience all that you have inflicted on others (and not repented). It is how the unlove is refined out of you as dross.
we only use this framework in our own understanding of our own soul's journey;
it is never imposed onto another person to minimize or diminish their suffering in any way; the abuser absolutely needs to be held accountable for every atrocity, and they are, most often by returning again to experience what they put others through.
Let me get this straight. Miss H's father was reincarnated to "teach her a lesson" by visiting on Miss H the abuse she visited on him in another life. By your logic he in turn will then be abused in a future life for what he did to her, regardless of motivation, because it WAS abusive. Sounds like the afterlife isn't very idyllic after all. In fact it is its own hell.
I take the most strenuous objection to the notion that Miss H, who thinks she was apparently some sort of awful abuser in a past life, would benefit from being abused herself to correct this situation. We know from long experience that abuse perpetrated on a person has a strong tendency to be perpetuated / repeated in subsequent generations. An abused child feels powerless; as an adult that missing power and control and mastery is re-established by visiting the same abuse on the weak and vulnerable persons encountered by the abused person as an adult. I have known people to break the cycle and spare their own children but they nearly always still pay a heavy price in the form of things like generalized anxiety disorder, chronic insomnia and depression, addictive tendencies, etc. Because the amount of pain that stays with them is nothing short of prodigious. Occasionally you read about someone who has a watershed breakdown of some kind from which they emerge as a more functional person, or, in the alternative, through lots of hard work on themselves they gradually become better adjusted. But I would not wish any of these outcomes on anyone.
I don't know what kind of world we live in that we have to get closure / find relief / make sense of the things that happen to us in such baroque ways.
Let me get this straight. Miss H's father was reincarnated to "teach her a lesson" by visiting on Miss H the abuse she visited on him in another life. By your logic he in turn will then be abused in a future life for what he did to her, regardless of motivation, because it WAS abusive. Sounds like the afterlife isn't very idyllic after all. In fact it is its own hell.
.
But it sure does give an abuser a wonderful excuse and absolution for his/her actions since it was meant to be so.
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