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Like I said over and over, I get it. Can we get past the brick wall "they broke the law" argument and look at the moral implications of the law? Really no point in arguing this anymore.
Can we get to the moral implications of whether or not christians should be allowed to "out" others by publishing their personal information over social media? Is that wrong?
Or do you feel christians are exempt from a moral obligation to keep private the personal information of their customers? Is that a Christian freedom from obligation none of the rest of us have?
You are a dodger, and never artful. You simply ignore the facts in order to present non-relevant information. Relevancy is that the judge FINED THE BAKER NOT FOR DISCRIMINATION BUT FOR PUBLISHING PERSONAL INFORMATION THAT RESULTED IN THREATS AGAINST THE LESBIAN COUPLE TO TAKE AWAY THEIR ADOPTED CHILDREN.
If anyone claims they were fined for discrimination, that person is an outright liar.
Are YOU claiming they were fined for discrimination--or for publishing personal information that resulted in harm. Which is it, jeff?
It is morally wrong for businesses and employees to discriminate.
Next issue.
Not when discrimination is taken to such extreme levels that it breaks other laws like freedom of religion. Discrimination is not a simple cut and dry term. Maybe you can claim discrimination if a business owner wants to give church members a discount, but not non-Christians. Or claim discrimination if a car salesman gives someone else a better deal. Where does it end?
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
If you are in business you have no more right to inflict your idea of morality than if you are an employee in the public or private sector. I also think it is immoral for an individual to discriminate other people based on race, religion, gender, age or sexual orientation. That is barring legal limits such as offering children alcohol. You certainly can discriminate against people you do not like as individuals though.
A business owner should not be forced to participate in immoral acts or ceremonies. Period.
Not when discrimination is taken to such extreme levels that it breaks other laws like freedom of religion. Discrimination is not a simple cut and dry term. Maybe you can claim discrimination if a business owner wants to give church members a discount, but not non-Christians. Or claim discrimination if a car salesman gives someone else a better deal. Where does it end?
A business owner should not be forced to participate in immoral acts or ceremonies. Period.
You said let's get past the legal implications and look at the moral ones. I gave my view on the moral ones. If you think a business owner can discriminate against a gay couple by not baking a wedding cake what about the county clerk with refusing to issue the licence ? If religious morality supercedes laws than that should apply to all people and not just business owners unless you believe that business owners either are more moral or have more rights. You also seem 5 believe that morality only extends to non necessary items.
businesses have to follow the laws, allowing them to pick and choose is immoral in my opinion. If religion gets to interfere with business laws and regulations then governments should be able to interfere with religion.
You do not want to discuss morality you want to discuss what you think of morality. You would have a better case if your arguments were more moral, making false and unsubstantiated claims is not the way to take the moral high ground.
How is enforcement of anti discrimination laws an extreme case? You already stated that they could not discriminate for the basic necessities hence there should not be exceptions for luxury items only. What kind of religious beliefs apply only to luxury items? You are simply looking for excuses for your religious views to allow discrimination.
Can we get to the moral implications of whether or not christians should be allowed to "out" others by publishing their personal information over social media? Is that wrong?
Or do you feel christians are exempt from a moral obligation to keep private the personal information of their customers? Is that a Christian freedom from obligation none of the rest of us have?
You are a dodger, and never artful. You simply ignore the facts in order to present non-relevant information. Relevancy is that the judge FINED THE BAKER NOT FOR DISCRIMINATION BUT FOR PUBLISHING PERSONAL INFORMATION THAT RESULTED IN THREATS AGAINST THE LESBIAN COUPLE TO TAKE AWAY THEIR ADOPTED CHILDREN.
If anyone claims they were fined for discrimination, that person is an outright liar.
Are YOU claiming they were fined for discrimination--or for publishing personal information that resulted in harm. Which is it, jeff?
Jeff also claimed that it was the women who published the discrimination on a review of the bakery but I could not find any mention of such and have requested a link.
Like I said over and over, I get it. Can we get past the brick wall "they broke the law" argument and look at the moral implications of the law? Really no point in arguing this anymore.
I already did, you dodged and ignored it every time bar none. The point you do not want to address is that breaking a contract that society made in good faith with you when you opened your business IS an immoral act. It is not just about breaking the law, it is about the morality of breaking that law too.
It is also immoral to seek exemption from public secular law based on special pleading or the idea that it should be one rule for you and yours and one for everyone else.
So yea, the moral aspect has been dealt with it despite your suggestion to the contrary here. You just do not like where that has gone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Do you believe a person's sexual orientation is their identity? I view gays as equal human beings. I don't see a behavior or lifestyle as their identity.
I think it is part of their identify yes. One that there is little to no reason to think they "choose" but for whatever reason is out of their control. One can equivocate over whether it was something they were born with, developed over time, or something else... but it is as beyond their control as their skin color.
So, as with most humans most of the time, if someone utters a statement or engages in an action that suggests that some aspect of a person or groups identify is wrong, evil, harmful or detrimental when it is not.... those people, or others, are likely to rise up and set your straight.
And the simple fact is you have never once managed to level a moral argument against homosexuality. All you do is either wave your god around and proclaim homosexuality upsets it..... or you focus solely on a minority sexual practice that is not even the sole purview of homosexuals, let alone all types of homosexual, and attempt to indict that instead while all the while pretending to be indicting homosexuality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Not when discrimination is taken to such extreme levels that it breaks other laws like freedom of religion.
It has not done so. At all. Anywhere. The problem is you have a completely false understanding of what "freedom of religion" is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
A business owner should not be forced to participate in immoral acts or ceremonies. Period.
They have not been, as you have failed to show any of it is immoral at all. Even a little bit. Anywhere. Ever.
Do you believe a person's sexual orientation is their identity? I view gays as equal human beings. I don't see a behavior or lifestyle as their identity.
You clearly don't, or you wouldn't be arguing so hard about it.
What, Jeff, is so hard to accept about equality applying equally?
Would you make this argument if a Wiccan was treated in such a manner? What about a Muslim, or a Jew?
I'll be blunt, honest and upfront: you do not, in fact, see gays or lesbians as equal human beings. If you did, you would have no problem with affording them equal rights under the law.
It's time, Jeff, for you to start being honest with yourself.
It's become very clear that jeffies biggest concern and objection and all the supposed statistics he presents are about anal sex.
I can't recall that you've ever stated what the objection is to two women being together, jeff.
Would you explain that to us?
In fact not only has he not addressed that, he willfully contrives to cherry pick statistics that leave them out entirely. While claiming the statistics he presents are representative of "Homosexuals" he contrives to remove sub groups from that classification which normalize the figures and in their removal he skews them in the direction his ongoing narrative demands.
I have yet to see him present, for example, comparative STI figures between the heterosexual community AS A WHOLE and the homosexual community AS A WHOLE. Ever. And yet that is exactly what he continues to claim his statistics are.
Do you believe a person's sexual orientation is their identity? I view gays as equal human beings. I don't see a behavior or lifestyle as their identity.
So going to the spa and showing with ALL people is fine with you?
Having ALL people of equality in the classroom teaching you kids is good?
Having ALL people of equality in the pulpit is just dandy?
Where would it be acceptable for ALL people of equality to work?
Where would it be UNACCEPTABLE for ALL people of equality or work or participate?
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