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I guess it comes down to they are. but they shouldn't be allowed to force their type of god on others and they are not allowed to persecute others in the name of the beliefs.
I just don't understand why we cannot tell people about how good God is and how he can help people who have a relationship with him without people saying we are cramming our beliefs down their throat. Christians just want to help. I think some go overboard but if a person has a rough time in their life I try to tell them to pray and trust God. Nowadays, you can't even go public with your beliefs yet it is ok for people to say that they don't believe in God. This is why I am scared to try to convince people to come to God. Folks get so upset.
You have the freedom to tell me your supernatural beliefs and I have the freedom to call them ridiculous, delusional, childish and silly. See how that works. It's called the internet. I have the freedom to do the same with anybody who approaches me in life about their supernatural beliefs. I am a firm believer that we should NOT automatically give deference to religion. That's why it partly persists. This whole "you can't criticize my religious beliefs because they are religious" is idiotic. We criticize others political beliefs. Religion should not be given special privilege.
You have the freedom to tell me your supernatural beliefs and I have the freedom to call them ridiculous, delusional, childish and silly. See how that works. It's called the internet. I have the freedom to do the same with anybody who approaches me in life about their supernatural beliefs.
Of course, being ignored and/or derided is exactly what they consider 'persecution'. That that doesn't remotely fit the actual concept - to say nothing of the definition - of persecution doesn't matter.
Another component of this issue is that a great many fundamentalists crave the idea that they're being persecuted. This is a deeply-imbued aspect of fundamental Christianity, harkening back to the early days of the religion when it actually was persecuted where it existed. It's a weird sort of emotional self-flagellation. They don't actually want to suffer real persecution, but they fancy the idea of 'suffering for Jesus' - so they convince themselves that someone telling them to buzz off is tantamount to persecution.
The psychological pathology of it all is fascinating, in a can't-look-away-from-the-trainwreck sort of way.
You have the freedom to tell me your supernatural beliefs and I have the freedom to call them ridiculous, delusional, childish and silly. See how that works. It's called the internet. I have the freedom to do the same with anybody who approaches me in life about their supernatural beliefs. I am a firm believer that we should NOT automatically give deference to religion. That's why it partly persists. This whole "you can't criticize my religious beliefs because they are religious" is idiotic. We criticize others political beliefs. Religion should not be given special privilege.
Bravo that man!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulsker 1856
Of course, being ignored and/or derided is exactly what they consider 'persecution'. That that doesn't remotely fit the actual concept - to say nothing of the definition - of persecution doesn't matter.
Another component of this issue is that a great many fundamentalists crave the idea that they're being persecuted. This is a deeply-imbued aspect of fundamental Christianity, harkening back to the early days of the religion when it actually was persecuted where it existed. It's a weird sort of emotional self-flagellation. They don't actually want to suffer real persecution, but they fancy the idea of 'suffering for Jesus' - so they convince themselves that someone telling them to buzz off is tantamount to persecution.
...and of course, their Bible tells them that they will get Jesus brownie points for being 'persecuted'.
Of course, being ignored and/or derided is exactly what they consider 'persecution'. That that doesn't remotely fit the actual concept - to say nothing of the definition - of persecution doesn't matter.
Another component of this issue is that a great many fundamentalists crave the idea that they're being persecuted. This is a deeply-imbued aspect of fundamental Christianity, harkening back to the early days of the religion when it actually was persecuted where it existed. It's a weird sort of emotional self-flagellation. They don't actually want to suffer real persecution, but they fancy the idea of 'suffering for Jesus' - so they convince themselves that someone telling them to buzz off is tantamount to persecution.
The psychological pathology of it all is fascinating, in a can't-look-away-from-the-trainwreck sort of way.
I tend to regard it as a sort of romanticization of an otherwise dull existence. At least in my particular subset of fundamentalism, it wasn't so much that persecution was elevated as one-foot-in-front of the other, "endure to the end", trudge through this weary world of sin and shame until we get to heaven. A very popular gospel song back then declared:
Quote:
When we all get to heaven
What a day of rejoicing that will be!
When we all see Jesus
We'll sing and shout the victory!
The really joyful songs we had were all about some imagined future in heaven, in contrast to the burdensome life in this world:
Quote:
This world is not my home,
I'm just passing through.
If heaven weren't my home,
Lord, what would I do?
The angels beckon me
from heaven's open door
And I don't feel at home in this world any more.
In the context of all this dour "holding fast to the end", the bar for persecution is pretty low. We didn't even NEED persecution to feel burdened. So being disbelieved, or worse, ignored, was enough to rise to the level of persecution in our minds, at least in the absence of actual persecution. Besides, a little pushback just confirmed what we already believed about ourselves, that we were "suffering" for Jesus by foregoing worldly pleasures and "having faith" in our eventual bliss in heaven.
Honestly, I'm not sure why we didn't just kill ourselves and be done with it.
I just don't understand why we cannot tell people about how good God is and how he can help people who have a relationship with him without people saying we are cramming our beliefs down their throat. Christians just want to help. I think some go overboard but if a person has a rough time in their life I try to tell them to pray and trust God. Nowadays, you can't even go public with your beliefs yet it is ok for people to say that they don't believe in God. This is why I am scared to try to convince people to come to God. Folks get so upset.
I haven’t been following this thread so I don’t know if you are still around. But my .02 is that many of us offer advice and counsel (whether it be religious or not) when it hasn’t been asked for. Sometimes, maybe most times, people just want to vent to someone who will compassionately listen, not be told how they should fix things. That’s something I need to learn myself. So instead of thinking you need to tell someone to trust God and pray, just listen. If they want your opinion they will ask for it.
I haven’t been following this thread so I don’t know if you are still around. But my .02 is that many of us offer advice and counsel (whether it be religious or not) when it hasn’t been asked for. Sometimes, maybe most times, people just want to vent to someone who will compassionately listen, not be told how they should fix things. That’s something I need to learn myself. So instead of thinking you need to tell someone to trust God and pray, just listen. If they want your opinion they will ask for it.
Indeed.
As a man I have that male tendency to feel that if someone is sharing a problem, it's because they want it fixed. Men are fixers (as a general rule) so for us learning to just "be present" for someone without judgment or agenda is doubly difficult. In fact if you can clearly see a solution, keeping mum about it can be intensely frustrating or anxiety-inducing -- if you haven't learned to die to your need to be in control, to be right, and to indulge your Jesus complex.
This is not just true of men, of course, women can do it and people can do it in gender-neutral roles like the role of religious follower we're talking about here.
There was an evangelist back in my day (this guy if any one cares) who liked to characterize proselytization like someone who knows a bridge is out on the road ahead, and you're jumping up and down in the highway leading to the bridge, yelling "STOP, STOP STOP!". This irritates people but when they understand why you are in the way, they will thank you for it.
Except the metaphor doesn't hold. There is no demonstrable literal peril, there is just a claimed and asserted peril for which you offer zero evidence. It's a very different situation. With a literal bridge out, you might even be guilty of a crime if you knew to stop people and didn't. But just claiming you're hell-bound and claiming you happen to have the remedy are just that: claims.
Ultimately the problem with proselytizers is that they have a highly inflated notion of the reality and demonstrability of their truth-claims.
I haven’t been following this thread so I don’t know if you are still around. But my .02 is that many of us offer advice and counsel (whether it be religious or not) when it hasn’t been asked for. Sometimes, maybe most times, people just want to vent to someone who will compassionately listen, not be told how they should fix things. That’s something I need to learn myself. So instead of thinking you need to tell someone to trust God and pray, just listen. If they want your opinion they will ask for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Indeed.
As a man I have that male tendency to feel that if someone is sharing a problem, it's because they want it fixed. Men are fixers (as a general rule) so for us learning to just "be present" for someone without judgment or agenda is doubly difficult. In fact if you can clearly see a solution, keeping mum about it can be intensely frustrating or anxiety-inducing -- if you haven't learned to die to your need to be in control, to be right, and to indulge your Jesus complex.
This is not just true of men, of course, women can do it and people can do it in gender-neutral roles like the role of religious follower we're talking about here.
There was an evangelist back in my day (this guy if any one cares) who liked to characterize proselytization like someone who knows a bridge is out on the road ahead, and you're jumping up and down in the highway leading to the bridge, yelling "STOP, STOP STOP!". This irritates people but when they understand why you are in the way, they will thank you for it.
Except the metaphor doesn't hold. There is no demonstrable literal peril, there is just a claimed and asserted peril for which you offer zero evidence. It's a very different situation. With a literal bridge out, you might even be guilty of a crime if you knew to stop people and didn't. But just claiming you're hell-bound and claiming you happen to have the remedy are just that: claims.
Ultimately the problem with proselytizers is that they have a highly inflated notion of the reality and demonstrability of their truth-claims.
Indeed. That post must have taken such significant effort to proselytize the board to how you feel about their claims.
Did you notice what you did. You just proselytized your viewpoint but it is different because it is protected speeches.
"Ultimately the problem with proselytizers is that they have a highly inflated notion of the reality and demonstrability of their truth-claims."
And yours isn't making more claims that deserve to be shunned, ridiculed, spit upon, torn out, stepped on, spated upon, it is just Christians.
It's never the Atheists, they're the best ones.
They even get to spread their ideas of Jesus
'He does not exist, just get over yourselves'.
Quote:
There was an evangelist back in my day (this guy if any one cares) who liked to characterize proselytization like someone who knows a bridge is out on the road ahead, and you're jumping up and down in the highway leading to the bridge, yelling "STOP, STOP STOP!". This irritates people but when they understand why you are in the way, they will thank you for it.
Don't worry, the bridge is out, take notice.
Don't worry when you fall it all will be fine.
'But what's that about, please say it, tell me'.
Too late, you got your way, all yours so like.
'But if you knew the future, would you say it.'
No, you're a waste of time, do the crime, pay it.
'Huh, what's that mean, you are making sentence.'
Ya, get over it. Tough call, you're so tough, repent.
Bye, have fun, you enjoyed your life, but you've lost.
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