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How so? Is the state refusing to allow you to oppress someone the Bible commands you to hate?
Pretty sure this is about the law passed in his state that transgender people can't use the bathroom of their choice, but instead must use the one that their anatomy says they should. Started a thread about it actually. Funny though, he actually blamed the Christians and dumb rednecks for it.
But both positions really show the flaw of putting all your faith into science and limiting your perception. Of course a talking snake seems ridiculous to you because it never happens in our modern world. Well, how do you know that it never happened in the ancient world? How do you know that snakes DID NOT have vocal chords? How do you know that the laws of science operated the exact same way 3000 years ago as today?
This is truly an argument born of desperation.
I'm not really going to spend a lot of time refuting desperation but I will say this much:
In the ancient world, outside of the Bible, how often have historians written about talking snakes?
Oh right ... ZERO.
Case closed.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Answer is that you don't and it is intellectually dishonest to assume as fact such things. You can't envision a world operating outside of what you perceive in this current world.
What's intellectually dishonest is to assume things exist that aren't documented ANYWHERE ... not even in the Bible. Because not even the Bible has snakes sitting around with the Pharaoh discussing politics, the grain harvest, and whether or not the Thebian Jackals will win the chariot races this year.
You would have snakes talking all over the place. You might even have snakes dictating their own histories with such titles as The History of Snakes in Roman Culture and The Influence of Reptiles on the Spread of Western Civilization.
But you don't see any of that, do you. Nope. Because only one snake talked and that was to illustrate a story element. Snakes have long been viewed as evil or, at the very least, nefarious and not to be trusted. Thus a snake lured Eve to eat the forbidden fruit ... and it became necessary for that particular snake to talk that one time in order for the plot to work.
Because the whole thing was a STORY, not history.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
But the second position is even more revealing. Only human beings can talk. That shows me that even in the mind of the most harden atheist accepting evolution as the gospel truth, they still see human beings as being different than animals. Wait, I thought evolution meant that I'm just another species of animals!
So what? Only cheetahs can run 70+ miles per hour. Only whales can sing songs to each other as a form of communication. Only spiders can spin webs. Only bees can build honeycombs and produce honey. There are a lot of traits and abilities that only a specific type of animal possesses. Just because humanity possesses an ability that allows us to do some pretty amazing things doesn't mean that we've been "gifted" with some divine ability separate and above all of the other animal species because we are the penultimate creation of a god.
Because when you get right down to it, we have FAR more in common with animals than we have differences. We spend most of our time sleeping, eating, courting mates, having sex, fighting over mates, fighting over territory, visiting the toilet, and essentially hanging around the bottom of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs just like animals do. And just because we tend to put a prettier face on all of it doesn't mean we aren't living an animal's life.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
There is no difference So the idea of another species talking shouldn't be absurd.
Then explain to me why no animal species talks NOW.
And not only that, what happened to their intelligence? Because in order for that snake to have a conversation with Eve, it had to be intelligent and sentient as well as possess the ability to talk. Strange, isn't it, how there aren't any snake civilizations out there, no snake literature, no snake music, no snake ambassadors negotiating treaties with we human beings, etc. etc.
Nope, they're just snakes slithering around eating mice, hissing at things, striking and biting, spitting, poisoning, eating eggs, giving birth to offspring, shedding their skin, and hoping they don't get caught by a poacher so they end up in some moron yuppy's aquarium until they get too big at such time they get dumped into the Everglades and have to compete with the crocks for food.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
In fact, logic tells me that out of all the thousands of species line, surely at least another line should have evolved vocal chords. Oh wait, guess we just have to give it another million years!
You mean like parrots? In addition, each species developed the vocal chords it needed for its environmental niche. It's not going to develop vocal chords if doing so doesn't really help it survive. You seem to think that evolution's goal is sentience but it's not.
I have no proof there isn't a golden teapot buried under my house either. No reason to think there is. I have no proof that Bigfoot exists. No reason to think he does. I have no proof that Krishna isn't real. No reason to think he is. I have no proof cats are not just alien overlords sent here to screw with us. No reason to think they are. I have no proof I am not an Asgardian. No reason to think I am though.
In other words, your argument that, "There is no proof, therefore it is", is dumber than Ray Comfort.
Let's not obfuscate southernb. This isn't about someone arguing for the existence of a golden teapot or Bigfoot. This is about people saying God didn't create the heavens and earth or God didn't create mankind without evolution. The people who make these claims have no proof. It is just their say-so.
I wasn't making the argument: "there is no proof, therefore it is." I was making the argument that it is improper to state the Bible is untrue as to creation of the universe and mankind since the one making such a spurious argument has no proof it is untrue.
I wasn't making the argument: "there is no proof, therefore it is." I was making the argument that it is improper to state the Bible is untrue as to creation of the universe and mankind since the one making such a spurious argument has no proof it is untrue.
I do not accept the possibility that the universe had an intelligent creator. I also give the probability that it could happen purely by chance as being 100%. The fact that it is here right now would indicate that. No need for any calculations and no need for any magic.
But the puzzle for me is how some folks are determined to assign the universe and all that's in it, especially us, to a supreme creator being with super intelligence and then worship this being as though it were something wondrous. The last thing on earth I would want to actually worship is the sick being that created such a monumental stuff-up!
If they said that within the universe there exists a 'god' which is the product of the evolution of combined human consciousness that worked in the spiritual realm, whatever that might be, then I would consider it. But God creating the universe? No.
If they said the OT myths stem from people of old who experienced natural events, then that would seem reasonable. Like the biblical flood - it is quite possible or maybe even probable, that a great catastrophe occurred that literally did destroy much of the known world, wiping out perhaps 50% of the population. Actually, there is some evidence of just such an event. Some scientists found evidence leading them to hypothesize then search for evidence to support this hypothesis and found it. But it's still just a hypothesis at this stage and they are not claiming it's anything more than that. Computer simulations support the hypothesis too.
If they said the OT myths stem from people of old who experienced natural events, then that would seem reasonable. Like the biblical flood - it is quite possible or maybe even probable, that a great catastrophe occurred that literally did destroy much of the known world, wiping out perhaps 50% of the population. Actually, there is some evidence of just such an event. Some scientists found evidence leading them to hypothesize then search for evidence to support this hypothesis and found it. But it's still just a hypothesis at this stage and they are not claiming it's anything more than that. Computer simulations support the hypothesis too.
Almost every civilization is located next to water. It stands to reason that there are going to be floods, tsunamis, sea level changes, portal collapses, and other catastrophes that would make it into a culture's mythology. In those days, everything was the result of an angry or pleased god. No one said, "That tsunami was caused by an underwater earthquake which, in turn, was caused by tectonic plates moving suddenly as pressure built up beneath them blah blah blah ..."
Nope, someone was wicked and had to be punished and god threw a hissy and flooded everyone. There was no science. It's just a crying shame that SOME people still live as though there STILL isn't any science.
In those days, everything was the result of an angry or pleased god. No one said, "That tsunami was caused by an underwater earthquake which, in turn, was caused by tectonic plates moving suddenly as pressure built up beneath them blah blah blah ..."
Nope, someone was wicked and had to be punished and god threw a hissy and flooded everyone. There was no science. It's just a crying shame that SOME people still live as though there STILL isn't any science.
Yes.
It's amazing how that kind of primitive/barbaric thinking still holds sway over a significant portion of an industrialized country like the USA well into the 21st century.
Almost every civilization is located next to water. It stands to reason that there are going to be floods, tsunamis, sea level changes, portal collapses, and other catastrophes that would make it into a culture's mythology. In those days, everything was the result of an angry or pleased god. No one said, "That tsunami was caused by an underwater earthquake which, in turn, was caused by tectonic plates moving suddenly as pressure built up beneath them blah blah blah ..."
Nope, someone was wicked and had to be punished and god threw a hissy and flooded everyone. There was no science. It's just a crying shame that SOME people still live as though there STILL isn't any science.
But maybe they were more in touch with nature and God back then and knew God caused the tectonic plates to undulate and cause a tsunami or flood. Maybe today we have lost that.
Let's not obfuscate southernb. This isn't about someone arguing for the existence of a golden teapot or Bigfoot. This is about people saying God didn't create the heavens and earth or God didn't create mankind without evolution. The people who make these claims have no proof. It is just their say-so.
I wasn't making the argument: "there is no proof, therefore it is." I was making the argument that it is improper to state the Bible is untrue as to creation of the universe and mankind since the one making such a spurious argument has no proof it is untrue.
Actually, one could say there is proof, albeit indirect proof.
By the way, I'm not saying belief in Jesus is wrong or something like that, only that the OT is full of cultural mythology and the God of the OT is a creation of that culture, ie, is part of the mythology. It's part of human nature in ancient culture to create gods and the God of Israel is no different. People still create gods to this day. A certain fruit tree of knowledge seems to be involved.
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