Atheism in 11 easy steps (soul, Christian, believers, service)
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Just this morning I was listening to Michael Shuemer (sp) and Neil Degrasse Tyson discussing that and how that was questioned during the Age of Enlightenment. Men like Adam Smith and Kant put it this way, can you determine if something is wrong without it being written in Scripture. Personally I think we can if it is based on logic. Are there reasons other than it is in the Bible to not marry or have sex with children, to not abuse animals, to drive on the correct side of the road , to not murder or to not store wastes next to water bodies?
To do that, one must assume morality. How do you determine morality if we are all just animals and based on chemical reactions?
Give me the gold standard for morality, please.
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This is one of my biggest beefs with some Christians , the claim that if you do not believe in a god you have no way of being a moral person.
I never said that. I just said you have no way to define what morality is.
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Even wolf packs have rules that limit the harm done to others within the pack as do chimps, gorillas and other intelligent social animals. A dog rolls on its back in a dog fight and most dogs will stop the fight rather than kill it while it is an easy opportunity. That is one of the reasons that dogs for dog fights have to be trained, trained to go for the kill rather than the normal action of accepting victory.
Good for them. But is that morality?
Is it now moral for me to take command of a group of people and take all the women as a mate simply because I can beat up the guys?
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I would put my morality against some of the Christians on this forum any day of the week. Or my father's against them or so on. I don't need a book in order to treat all women with respect for example and to treat them as equals. I am certainly not saying that Christians are not moral either but I do believe that their morality comes from the same place as mine, through the evolutionary process of our brains and through what we observed in our society.
Good for you. But you still have yet to explain why your opinion of morality is correct.
The funny thing is, to have any outrage at any of that (commanded by God or not), you must presuppose the concept of morality. There is no such thing as morality when it comes to atheism, as the only thing you have is your opinion of what you like or dislike. There is no such thing as morality in the natural world -- it is only based on needs and survival.
That's a weird comment, since Christianity is ENTIRELY based on needs and survival.
You "need," absolutely require forgiveness via Jesus' death and resurrection, or you will PERISH ETERNALLY.
A need + survival = the entire basis for Christianity.
And it's God that determines morality, not human beings, or chemical reactions in our brains.
But that wasn't what my reply to you comment was about.
My comment was in reply to your saying morality is from God but that "There is no such thing as morality in the natural world -- it is only based on needs and survival."
If needs and survival based actions/beliefs do not equal morality, then neither does Christianity, which is literally based on the NEED (absolute 100% requirement) for "salvation" in order to protect SURVIVAL (eternal life v. perishing), whatever "God determines." It is still on us to have that primitive response of fear of punishment and the desire for survival that is required in order for people to turn to a belief system that requires that they be "saved."
BTW, are you saying that people's fear of fire/death/hell and urge for survival via Christianity is not prompted by chemical reactions in their brains? Obviously, it is. Indeed, it's the basest, most limbic response possible: seeking pleasure (heaven) and avoiding pain (hell). It is that reptilian. As basic and base as things can get. That's why it's been so successful (so far...not as long as some other religions). Because it touches on the absolute most primitive, chemically-instilled desires v. fears we have: avoid pain; seek pleasure.
But that wasn't what my reply to you comment was about.
My comment was in reply to your saying morality is from God but that "There is no such thing as morality in the natural world -- it is only based on needs and survival."
If needs and survival based actions/beliefs do not equal morality, then neither does Christianity, which is literally based on the NEED (absolute 100% requirement) for "salvation" in order to protect SURVIVAL (eternal life v. perishing) then Christianity, whatever "God determines," is also not moral.
I'm differentiating between the physical needs one has for food and shelter over the God-given need for forgiveness.
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BTW, are you saying that people's fear of fire/death/hell and urge for survival via Christianity is not prompted by chemical reactions in their brains? Obviously, it is. Indeed, it's the basest, most limbic response possible: seeking pleasure (heaven) and avoiding pain (hell). It is that reptilian. As basic and base as things can get.
Actually, no--it's based on God calling us into fellowship with him. We don't choose God because we happen to be born with the right chemicals in our brains.
Actually, no--it's based on God calling us into fellowship with him. We don't choose God because we happen to be born with the right chemicals in our brains.
Nope, sorry, mounting evidence shows that we DO choose God because we happen to be born with the right chemicals in their brains.
Even a newborn infant with a so-far minimal intellect and zero experience will turn toward the nipple eagerly and scream blue murder if it's cold or something sticks it.
Religion relies on that deepest, most primal, animal response - pleasure v. pain - to scare people into joining and keep them there with lovely promises.
It is very, very, very simple stuff and pretty interesting, actually.
To do that, one must assume morality. How do you determine morality if we are all just animals and based on chemical reactions?
Give me the gold standard for morality, please.
I never said that. I just said you have no way to define what morality is.
Good for them. But is that morality?
Is it now moral for me to take command of a group of people and take all the women as a mate simply because I can beat up the guys?
Good for you. But you still have yet to explain why your opinion of morality is correct.
I give up, I guess the only sense of morality comes through Jesus and the majority of humans have no morality and absolutely no way to telling right from wrong. Outlaw homosexuality and legalize slavery. That must be the gold standard.
The gold standard is what in your view, only what is in your Bible? Should it be OK to marry young girls? If not where in your Bible does it specify the age upon which a girl can be married? If slavery was allowed back then why not today, and none of the nonsense that it was good back in those days? Do we get the protection of animals from the Bible and if so why did it take over 1800 years in the Christian world to start doing so?
There is some fluidity in morality, we do not have the same standards as they did in either the OT or the NT. Most of our standards for morality were the same in cultures that had no contact with the teachings of your god they had their own. Do you think the other gods were also moral teachers?
The way to define morality is using logic to determine what is good and what is bad to individuals and to societies. I am no expert in this field by any means so I am not equipped to supply you with all the arguments for it.
You have yet to prove that your God is not only exists but that he is the only god to do so. Nor have you any proof that all humans get their morality from a god or from your God. So yours is just an opinion as well.
I never said that all other animals had the same morality as do humans or even the same amongst species but there is morality among them. I have watched videos of wild animals assisting other species from being stuck in the mud for example. This has nothing to do with needs or survival for say an elephant to pull a baby rhino out of the mud, no more than a human doing the same for a young deer.
I give up, I guess the only sense of morality comes through Jesus and the majority of humans have no morality and absolutely no way to telling right from wrong. Outlaw homosexuality and legalize slavery. That must be the gold standard.
The gold standard is what in your view, only what is in your Bible? Should it be OK to marry young girls? If not where in your Bible does it specify the age upon which a girl can be married? If slavery was allowed back then why not today, and none of the nonsense that it was good back in those days? Do we get the protection of animals from the Bible and if so why did it take over 1800 years in the Christian world to start doing so?
There is some fluidity in morality, we do not have the same standards as they did in either the OT or the NT. Most of our standards for morality were the same in cultures that had no contact with the teachings of your god they had their own. Do you think the other gods were also moral teachers?
The way to define morality is using logic to determine what is good and what is bad to individuals and to societies. I am no expert in this field by any means so I am not equipped to supply you with all the arguments for it.
You have yet to prove that your God is not only exists but that he is the only god to do so. Nor have you any proof that all humans get their morality from a god or from your God. So yours is just an opinion as well.
I never said that all other animals had the same morality as do humans or even the same amongst species but there is morality among them. I have watched videos of wild animals assisting other species from being stuck in the mud for example. This has nothing to do with needs or survival for say an elephant to pull a baby rhino out of the mud, no more than a human doing the same for a young deer.
I am not asking you to suddenly adopt a theocratic view of society. But I am pointing out that simple human logic and human physiology does not account for morality. Is that elephant moral?
Just this morning I was listening to Michael Shuemer (sp) and Neil Degrasse Tyson discussing that and how that was questioned during the Age of Enlightenment. Men like Adam Smith and Kant put it this way, can you determine if something is wrong without it being written in Scripture. Personally I think we can if it is based on logic. Are there reasons other than it is in the Bible to not marry or have sex with children, to not abuse animals, to drive on the correct side of the road , to not murder or to not store wastes next to water bodies?
That doesn't show me a capability to have a moral compass outside of God. That shows me awareness of consequences and wanting to avoid them. Most ppl avoid violence. Most people don't want to get a physical fist fight. Because it's the moral thing to do right? No, non-Christians would avoid such things because they are unpleasant.
OTOH, I find mocking people to be immoral. Atheists don't. They even justify it as a good thing. Why? Because they enjoy it and there is no consequence involved.
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Originally Posted by badlander
This is one of my biggest beefs with some Christians , the claim that if you do not believe in a god you have no way of being a moral person. As Christians do not follow some of the morals from the OT then the logical conclusion is that people like you should think that Christians are the only creatures on this planet that possibly can be moral. I find that an insult to the majority of humans that live or have lived on Earth and any animal society that has its one morals. For me morals does not come solely from what my opinion is and it has been explained to you over and over that morals are not just opinions. That you think I am an immoral or amoral person because I do not believe in any gods is a reflection of your inability to understand people like me rather than a reflection of any lack of morals of mine.
History is ripe of people doing horrible acts. In the Roman era, citizens enjoyed watching Christians be eaten alive by lions for sport. In medevil times, man created all kinds of unique and vicious devices to inflict maximum torture on a person. Now you might say well we have evolved beyond that and are more moral and civilized, but is that really true? They were born with the same brain. Same capacity for logic and reason. What happened to their moral compass? And how is that any different than people enjoying a boxing or UFC fight or watching fake violence in a movie or tv show? We enjoy it, right?
I'm sure non-believers have good morals, but here's the problem. Their morals are all conditional, cultural and self centered based. As a Christian, the Holy Spirit has shown me how selfishness is a sin against God and how almost every action of a non-believer is selfish based. You help out at the soup kitchen. Hey that's great. Would you still do it if the homeless ppl spit in your face and called you names? I doubt many would!! A Christian would still want to help regardless of the condition.
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Originally Posted by badlander
Even wolf packs have rules that limit the harm done to others within the pack as do chimps, gorillas and other intelligent social animals. A dog rolls on its back in a dog fight and most dogs will stop the fight rather than kill it while it is an easy opportunity. That is one of the reasons that dogs for dog fights have to be trained, trained to go for the kill rather than the normal action of accepting victory.
And some animals eat their young. Instinct and morality are not the same.
It's this easy-peasy believism that is so appealing to lazy non-thinkers.
Like "Abracadabra!" Just utter the magic words, "I believe in Jesus" and you get a genuine, certified-by-god, get-out-of-hell-free card!
Of course, from that point on you get to sin your fool head of for the rest of your life because you're already "saved!"
What a sweet deal!
Moderator cut: edited .
Who told you that lie, you best think again.
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