Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There is a universe. It can be tested and verified. That is your evidence. How did it get here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude
I know! I know! Ask me!!
Your godling magi-poofed it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinEden99
So if you don't know....just make up whatever could explain it? Or follow what somebody else made up?
That would be about it.
What we can say with certainty is God did not create it. That you check for yourself in your own bible. It does Not say "God created the universe". It says God created the heavens and the earth and God put two great lights in the heavens, one to give us light by day and one to give us light by night. He also placed the stars in the heavens to give us light by night.
If you look deeper into original versions you will find it says God created a dome above the earth that he called heaven and in it he placed the lights and so on.
No universe mentioned!
In fact, how could the universe be mentioned when the creators of the creation story (and it is just a story) didn't know of the existence of the galaxy, let alone the universe. Besides, it says that God created everything in six days - it takes about 90 billion years to cross from one end of the visible universe to the other, ruling out the possibility of it being created in six days and that a mere six thousand years ago. If the universe were created by God in some magic poof trick we would not know of it because light from the far reaches would still be in the far reaches. In fact, the Milkyway would not be visible in the night sky since the Milkyway is about 100,000 years across. We would now only be seeing stars 6, 000 years away - not even close to the galactic core (where by the way, we can see stars orbiting very close to the galactic black hole that resides in the center of the galaxy).
Isn't that what science does? Don't know how the different species got here? EVOLUTIONDIDIT!
Don't know how life started? ABIOGENESISDIDIT!
Bottom line is, instead of just assuming that it's impossible for a supernatural explanation to explain it, why not look at all the options? There is a universe, and the only logical explanation is that something/someone caused it.
That would hardly be a logical explanation. Something caused it yes, not 'someone'. That something would be the big bang - and whatever came before the big bang.
Perhaps the answer, now I have had enough coffee to kick start my brain, is that, without a god - belief, there is nothing to fall back on but a humanist social mindset. This is often seen as 'making ourselves God'.
That again relates back to the basic reason why god -believers and non -believers fail to understand each other. The theist believes there is a god and assumes the atheists do, too, but are simply denying it. They have this idea that atheists are simply making themselves more important than the god they secretly believe in, but don't want to obey because they want to fornicate in the streets, are consumed with pride and of course have Satan whispering into their ears.
To atheists, this is ludicrous. We are simply all you have to decide how to live when you stop believing in a god.
That would explain a lot. Yes indeed, I have been having this thought in the back of my head. Theists cannot comprehend that their god doesn't actually exist. This makes sense, to harp on an over-harped theme (sorry), I cannot comprehend that my son is dead or that things went so wrong for him, even at an early age and that he finally took his life. I just cannot get my head around it. Yet it happened, it is a fact. A harsh fact! How do I cope? I picture myself back in the time when we were still a family and I was a dad. I live in the past when life was still good. So yeah, I can understand the theist mindset.
You made an interesting point about Genesis and the world, as God (according to Genesis) didn't create the universe. he just created the earth, sun moon starts and planets in no particular scientifically comprehensible order. In the same way, Noah didn't take all the animals on the ark, but just what could be loaded on plus some sacrificial animals, which could be feasibly housed and kept alive for a year or more.
What happened is that, as our knowledge of the world and universe expanded, what Genesis was saying happened also had to be expanded to fit or just become an unfeasible tale.
The original Sumerian world that was pretty much a river -valley within mountains and a half dozen species of animals could easily be accommodated on a large barge while the valley flooded. By Roman times, the world was a lot bigger and so the ark was either a bit bigger or a bit more cramped.
By Victorian times it was seen as a real problem to get all the species on, and when the prehistoric animals had to be crammed on too, it took for pretty ingenious, or indeed far -fetched, explanations to make it work, and in some cases approached divine magic..which of course raises the question of why not do it by magic in the first place? (1)
Similarly, the wrong order of the creation and specifically the sun an moon made after the light they produced had been made had to be explained in various ingenious ways. Nobody is more ingenious than our pal Eusebius (2), and the belated creation of sun an moon is explained by their being there already when the light appeared but Moses couldn't see them because of the cloud -cover (rummage through Psalms, Job or Isaiah to find a reference to the clouds that float above the earth, just as they do today, to "Prove" this theory) and God, while showing Moses the vision (as man hadn't been made yet) didn't explain to him that they were really there but he couldn't see them because of the clouds.
We all have to decide whether that is a believable explanation or not, because if it isn't, we have to relegate Genesis to myth. A myth that, as the world and the universe grew, had to grow to keep up with it and has found it increasingly difficult to do so.
There are various ways of handling this. The Genesis -literalist way of making it work with various explanations. The way of saying that it is true in a symbolic or metaphorical way. Or that it is not true, but the rest of the Bible is. Though I can't recall anyone saying it that way, and the preferred method is to say that the Bible may not be true but there is a God anyway.
Though the theists of various marque may see it as all about finding ways of avoiding admitting that it isn't believable, it is really about the individual making up their own minds. All we have to do is make sure they hear both sides of the debate.
(1) Cue '"God has his raisins" which is actually not a scientific, logical, mythological or even an 'alien technology' argument, but is purely faith -based denial of all the evidence.
(2) in Bible -factuality -exegesis terms - Mystic equals him in a complete makeover as spiritual education -through myth...or possible events like the crucifixion. Like I say the individual must look at the explanation and decide.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-05-2016 at 06:13 AM..
Reason: a few commas and comments
Perhaps the answer, now I have had enough coffee to kick start my brain, is that, without a god - belief, there is nothing to fall back on but a humanist social mindset. This is often seen as 'making ourselves God'.
That again relates back to the basic reason why god -believers and non -believers fail to understand each other. The theist believes there is a god and assumes the atheists do, too, but are simply denying it. They have this idea that atheists are simply making themselves more important than the god they secretly believe in, but don't want to obey because they want to fornicate in the streets, are consumed with pride and of course have Satan whispering into their ears.
To atheists, this is ludicrous. We are simply all you have to decide how to live when you stop believing in a god.
Exactly. This is why I am not ready to pull the carpet yet. I have said it many time Trans. I don't fully understand what to give these people. Religion seems to provide "false hope" but it does bring real strenght. The one thing I see is that when I say "all we have is eachother" or "my sons injury was a stat." doesnt help people. So I don't know what to tell them.
Keep in the back of your head, I am not talking about fundy-mentals. When I deal with mentals I just calm them down and move them on. What do you try and do with these types of brains Trans?
Try to understand them, Arach. Remember none of this is our fault. If we have a set of human perceptions that are quite inadequate for seeing things as they really are and a mind that can delude itself even if it it isn't actually malfunctioning, it is because evolution equipped us with eyes that could focus on a rock to estimate how far we had to grab before the cockroach could make a run for it and a brain that would make us spot threatening shadows in the dark and scoot good and fast, even if it was a bush. Better survive that check first and find it really was a crouching panther.
It is a fact of historical record that all the various conclusions we drew in the old days - a flat earth with a dome over it, lightning being various tribal gods throwing spears, Man coming from a celestial Kangaroo pouch or foam thrown up by a celestial wave sloshing into a celestial rock -pool were replaced by thinking and investigating, by explanations that have stood up (with some modification) to scrutiny.
That is has tended to make us longer -lived and healthier and I would say, happier, too, is enough justification for looking into what might seem pointless research.
But the human instinct and tendency is not to think logically or scientifically. We use common sense which is gar from reliable, and sticking up for the point of view we hold.
This is the way we think right up to the top. Politics is almost entirely not based on logical or impartial explanation. It is all about selling your line, even if it means fooling all of the people some of the time. And don't talk to me about the advertising industry .
It is not to be wondered at that this is the usual method of argument by people who roll up here. One of the first things I learned when I knew I was an atheist and started reading about it was the basic rules of logic, and particularly the logical fallacies spumed up by 'Commonsense' or self -justifying argument. That's why so much time is spent on explaining false reasoning and pointing up self -serving argument. This is understandably taken personally and it is a pity as it isn't intended so, is a waste of time, and could all have been avoided if only bogstandard logical reasoning formed part of the curriculum. It doesn't -not in ANY country I know of.
The UK will be the first, just as soon as the rush to atheism is complete and I am elected dictator for life.
My election candidacy was made in this speech. Not in my real name of course, Once I have the UK in my grip, Europe (they can't be allowed to exit us) and then the USA, will fall like a ripe plum into my clammy hands. Rest of the world in due course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abqZn6SFiWs
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-05-2016 at 06:49 AM..
Talking logical to an emotional doesn't work for me. So, Telling some people that "the "universe" may love you, I don't know" doesn't violate any physics, chemistry, or biological interactions so I use it sometimes. Since the data suggest that it is more reasonable to claim this region of space seems to be "life"; making the next prediction of "maybe some human emotion is there too" , although only a prediction, does not blandly break any rules and is supported indirectly commonsense. many non falsible ideas have no connection with commonsense.
In education, using the person's experience and what they have been told by uncle, twice removed, fred on their mom's friends sister side, is used to insert knew information. I call it "momentum". Use the listener's momentum to turn them. You fully understand the problem with that ...Sometimes its just strap in, grab the wheel, and hold on. At other times, strap them in and throw the switch.
There is a universe. It can be tested and verified. That is your evidence. How did it get here?
Why did it have to get there? It may have always been there in some form or other. That is the problem with theists. They note that the universe exists and then immediately jump to the unfounded conclusion that there must have been a time when it didn't exist. Strange that they just can't imagine the universe always being there when they have no problem at all imagining their God always being there.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. 
