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Okay. YOU don't believe. Billions of other people on Earth disagree and see no real need for "scientific evidence." I am with them.
You keep going on about "evidence". I am pointing out that "evidence" in the sense you are referring to is irrelevant in regards to faith. That's why they call it FAITH.
It is a part of human makeup as much as sexuality is. Just as the existence of a certain percentage of the world who is asexual does not change the fact that our species is sexual by nature, the existence of a certain percentage of atheists does not change the fact that our species is spiritual by nature.
And religion has a lot more to offer than things like "fear of death" and all that. Mythology, tradition, ritual, etc are all a part of the human story and religion has been a huge part of telling that story.
Everything in bold is irrelevant to the topic at hand. I need "evidence" for Faith about as much as I need "evidence" for the beauty of the music of Led Zeppelin. It is absolutely irrational for me to prefer Led Zeppelin or Dead Can Dance over Nirvana or Phish. And yet I do. No amount of scientific evidence can convince me that Nirvana or Phish are better than Led Zeppelin or Dead Can Dance. Why? These are not questions of "reason, science" or what have you, but questions of what the individual feels.
Questions of faith are about just that: faith. They are to be approached philosophical, not through "scientific evidence."
Why is this such a hard thing to understand?
Absolutely. It is absolutely completely irrational and unscientific for me to believe in God. AND. YOUR. POINT. IS. WHAT. EXACTLY?
And what is "consciousness" exactly? Philosophical question there, no science needed.
I am not saying it is a default, just saying it is different. And yes, atheists are different from the majority of the world's population.
Yes, the color blind can have an UNDERSTANDING that color exist and can have a list of what colors are...but can they ever EXPERIENCE color? I am not talking about THE EXISTENCE OF color, but the FEELING of awe that comes when looking at a rainbow. Someone who has never seen in color cannot hope to truly grasp the vibrant red of a fire truck, the bright green color of a praying mantis or how beautiful that cosmic blue Jeep I've had my eye on is.
Religion does exist: can we agree on that? But if you go to a Gnostic Mass you will not experience it, anymore than if someone who only listens to hip-hop would not truly experience a Led Zeppelin concert even if they were there.
The existence of a thing and the EXPERIENCE of a thing are not the same.
"Sound" and "rational" are not the same thing. And yes, religion is irrational...AND?
The best things in life are irrational. Love, passion, beauty, humor, these are all outside of the realm of science, and yet are awesome.
The "why" we believe cannot be explained in words...it can only be experienced. Just as the beauty of a rainbow cannot be explained in words that a color-blind person can understand. They can get the general concept of prisms of light and reflection and all that, but could they ever hope of opening their eyes and going "wow" at the sight of a rainbow over the Pacific on the edge of a rainforest? No.
By way of background, I was born Catholic, but in my 20's walked away from all forms of religion and became a non-believer. Why? I just couldn't swallow such fantastic flights of fantasy, and so many disconnects in logic and rationality without at least some substantive, verifiable evidence. I don't believe in Santa Claus, BTW, for the same reasons I don't believe in any god or creator etc., or a "life" after death, re-birth, reincarnation etc., of any type. There simply isn't, in my experience, any evidence whatsoever.
However, I am open to new information, and would ask if anyone has any direct evidence, please present it.
Two basic standards apply:
1. It has to be verifiably true
2. It has to have direct evidentiary value. IOW, it has to speak directly and substantively to the premise that there is, in fact, a god.
BTW, no dogma-as-evidence or anecdotal submissions - only real "stuff" that can be verified.
Yeah, good luck with that.
I've noticed that atheists as a group have something in common with God in that both strongly believe in the biblical First Commandment, usually summed up as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".
Atheists will not be subordinate to any god. Neither will God. In this way, atheists are just like God. By adopting for themselves what in essence is God's First Commandment, atheists have made themselves His peer group.
Atheists are asking the wrong party when they ask us to produce evidence that, by its definition, cannot be measured using earthly tools. Ain't gonna happen. Atheists need to ask this of God Himself. Atheists need to ask God to break the laws of physics and throw them a bone. This is well within God's power.
Except atheists won't ask Him, as that would have them subordinate themselves to a god, so they ask us instead, knowing we can't deliver. For His part, God ain't answering atheists, because, as He once said, He will not have other gods before Him. He requires subordination.
So, there is the impasse.
Last edited by sylvianfisher; 06-03-2016 at 04:32 AM..
I've noticed that atheists as a group have something in common with God in that both strongly believe in the biblical First Commandment, usually summed up as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".
Atheists will not be subordinate to any god. Neither will God. In this way, atheists are just like God. By adopting for themselves what in essence is God's First Commandment, atheists have made themselves His peer group.
Atheists are asking the wrong party when they ask us to produce evidence that, by its definition, cannot be measured using earthly tools. Ain't gonna happen. Atheists need to ask this of God Himself. Atheists need to ask God to break the laws of physics and throw them a bone. This is well within God's power.
Except atheists won't ask Him, as that would have them subordinate themselves to a god, so they ask us instead, knowing we can't deliver. For His part, God ain't answering atheists, because, as He once said, He will not have other gods before Him. He requires subordination.
So, there is the impasse.
Been there, done that. Most of us weren't always atheists. I was a born-again Southern Baptist for many years, at one point asking God to provide me evidence so that I might believe more strongly and be able to witness more effectively. Short story-Still Waiting.
I've noticed that atheists as a group have something in common with God in that both strongly believe in the biblical First Commandment, usually summed up as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".
Atheists will not be subordinate to any god. Neither will God. In this way, atheists are just like God. By adopting for themselves what in essence is God's First Commandment, atheists have made themselves His peer group.
Atheists are asking the wrong party when they ask us to produce evidence that, by its definition, cannot be measured using earthly tools. Ain't gonna happen. Atheists need to ask this of God Himself. Atheists need to ask God to break the laws of physics and throw them a bone. This is well within God's power.
Except atheists won't ask Him, as that would have them subordinate themselves to a god, so they ask us instead, knowing we can't deliver. For His part, God ain't answering atheists, because, as He once said, He will not have other gods before Him. He requires subordination.
So, there is the impasse.
Done that; been there This is the old 'atheists are their own God' argument. So Democracy is making people their own "King". So what? At least kings existed.
It is amazing how much effort goes into trying to discredit atheist as atheists, rather than contesting what we argue.
Been there, done that. Most of us weren't always atheists. I was a born-again Southern Baptist for many years, at one point asking God to provide me evidence so that I might believe more strongly and be able to witness more effectively. Short story-Still Waiting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Done that; been there This is the old 'atheists are their own God' argument. So Democracy is making people their own "King". So what? At least kings existed.
It is amazing how much effort goes into trying to discredit atheist as atheists, rather than contesting what we argue.
Aw heck, and I thought I was onto something original and clever. How humbling that I am a garden variety thinker. I don't think I'll have anything to offer that you haven't heard before and discredited. Why even converse, ya know?
I don't think it's amazing what you say is amazing, though. I think people have the natural penchant for first putting forth the thoughts that made the best sense to them. I'm sure it's a complete drag for you to hear the same stuff from people, as the first things they offer, when you are thirsty for better stuff.
I also think it's not right or fair that some of us, an apparent few of us, have interesting phenomena happen to us personally while others never experience such stuff. I wish it would happen to more people. The phenomena is situational and always irreproducible, such is its nature, that nothing can be done to summon it except from memory.
Well, at least you recognized what I offered as familiar to you and lamentable but ultimately not a discreditable idea, certainly not to the apparent few who have experienced phenomena.
Last edited by sylvianfisher; 06-03-2016 at 01:00 PM..
Indeed, most of the questions have been asked and answered, including wgo god won't prove himself, though 'Atheists won't ask him' is one I hadn't heard before. Though I recall the answer - God is supposed to know what we ask without we ask it.
I've noticed that atheists as a group have something in common with God in that both strongly believe in the biblical First Commandment, usually summed up as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".
Atheists will not be subordinate to any god. Neither will God. In this way, atheists are just like God. By adopting for themselves what in essence is God's First Commandment, atheists have made themselves His peer group.
Atheists are asking the wrong party when they ask us to produce evidence that, by its definition, cannot be measured using earthly tools. Ain't gonna happen. Atheists need to ask this of God Himself. Atheists need to ask God to break the laws of physics and throw them a bone. This is well within God's power.
Except atheists won't ask Him, as that would have them subordinate themselves to a god, so they ask us instead, knowing we can't deliver. For His part, God ain't answering atheists, because, as He once said, He will not have other gods before Him. He requires subordination.
So, there is the impasse.
That would be the first fault with this god of yours. Did you also just happen to notice that four of the ten commandments are about God himself? Four out of the ten! That leaves a measly six for humanity. Do we actually even want to ask this god anything?
That would be the first fault with this god of yours. Did you also just happen to notice that four of the ten commandments are about God himself? Four out of the ten! That leaves a measly six for humanity. Do we actually even want to ask this god anything?
Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning, except to infer that you feel underfed. To your question, though, I think your answer has been no.
Sorry, I don't follow your reasoning, except to infer that you feel underfed. To your question, though, I think your answer has been no.
Perhaps the answer, now I have had enough coffee to kick start my brain, is that, without a god - belief, there is nothing to fall back on but a humanist social mindset. This is often seen as 'making ourselves God'.
That again relates back to the basic reason why god -believers and non -believers fail to understand each other. The theist believes there is a god and assumes the atheists do, too, but are simply denying it. They have this idea that atheists are simply making themselves more important than the god they secretly believe in, but don't want to obey because they want to fornicate in the streets, are consumed with pride and of course have Satan whispering into their ears.
To atheists, this is ludicrous. We are simply all you have to decide how to live when you stop believing in a god.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 06-04-2016 at 04:21 AM..
By way of background, I was born Catholic, but in my 20's walked away from all forms of religion and became a non-believer. Why? I just couldn't swallow such fantastic flights of fantasy, and so many disconnects in logic and rationality without at least some substantive, verifiable evidence. I don't believe in Santa Claus, BTW, for the same reasons I don't believe in any god or creator etc., or a "life" after death, re-birth, reincarnation etc., of any type. There simply isn't, in my experience, any evidence whatsoever.
However, I am open to new information, and would ask if anyone has any direct evidence, please present it.
Two basic standards apply:
1. It has to be verifiably true
2. It has to have direct evidentiary value. IOW, it has to speak directly and substantively to the premise that there is, in fact, a god.
BTW, no dogma-as-evidence or anecdotal submissions - only real "stuff" that can be verified.
Why do you bother asking for evidence when you have no intention of hearing any of it? I have tried persuasive logic essays. Links to pages where scientists and other people have one proof or another. Philosophical justifications. And so on. It gets skipped like you can't see it. You don't believe in that stuff, your mind actually filters out what you see and hear so nothing in the world can convince you otherwise.
If you can't learn to learn, why should any of us teach you anything?
There is literally evidence of God all around you. Nature, birth and death, evolution, the physical laws. All of these are products of a creative order. All of these are plain to see natural miracles that cannot be reproduced by any current technology. Even if they could produce it in a lab, this would prove that the substance (birth, for instance) was a created thing, validating the existence of a Creator.
By what standards do we measure your standards? That is, what is "true" (verifiably true is a redundancy, and you have told us nothing)? There are things in this world accepted as universals, like that doors open to the left and tighten to the right, but this just makes them widely accepted. https://www.quora.com/How-do-we-know...something-true
Quote:
Ultimately, however, truth is usually faith. We make reasonable assumptions until they are disproven. Science often refers to these truths as theories. The biggest lie most people follow is the idea that a theory is absolute truth.
Also, what determines whether evidence is valuable or not? And why must it be direct evidence? I could look up plenty that indirectly showed way better than "direct" evidence ever could.
Ultimately, this is just troll-bait. There is absolutely nothing we can do to convince a person so willfully blind that they cannot see the hand of God in the world about them.
Quote:
Been there, done that. Most of us weren't always atheists. I was a born-again Southern Baptist for many years, at one point asking God to provide me evidence so that I might believe more strongly and be able to witness more effectively. Short story-Still Waiting.
So, basically, you wanted God to be your fairy godmother, and when God wouldn't deliver on demand, you doubted God's existence. Or maybe, God was telling you "suck it up and stop whining, I gave you life, a family, plenty of miraculous things happening everyday, oh but I didn't get you a pony as a kid, so that is really all it takes for you not to believe." God demands faithfulness as well as faith. You weren't born again, and you weren't a Southern Baptist. You were an atheist, and won't be otherwise until you get back on the horse and start believing again. Your wife left you? Job fell through? Yeah it happens. But life goes on. Be faithful and have faith.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 06-04-2016 at 09:15 AM..
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This is the old 'atheists are their own God' argument. So Democracy is making people their own "King". So what? At least kings existed.
