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Atheists will not be subordinate to any god. Neither will God. In this way, atheists are just like God. By adopting for themselves what in essence is God's First Commandment, atheists have made themselves His peer group.
Atheists are asking the wrong party when they ask us to produce evidence that, by its definition, cannot be measured using earthly tools. Ain't gonna happen. Atheists need to ask this of God Himself. Atheists need to ask God to break the laws of physics and throw them a bone. This is well within God's power.
Except atheists won't ask Him, as that would have them subordinate themselves to a god, so they ask us instead, knowing we can't deliver. For His part, God ain't answering atheists, because, as He once said, He will not have other gods before Him. He requires subordination.
So, there is the impasse.
this is well said.
the character trait of humbleness is central to every authentic path of self-improvement, self-development, spirituality, and religion. it is a cornerstone of character and integrity, whether a person is religious or not.
this is well said.
the character trait of humbleness is central to every authentic path of self-improvement, self-development, spirituality, and religion. it is a cornerstone of character and integrity, whether a person is religious or not.
How humble is it to assert that you have special knowledge of a supernatural creator of all things ever made?
I'm sure it's my fault I didn't seek this out though, amirite?
Atheists are asking the wrong party when they ask us to produce evidence that, by its definition, cannot be measured using earthly tools. Ain't gonna happen. Atheists need to ask this of God Himself. Atheists need to ask God to break the laws of physics and throw them a bone. This is well within God's power.
I'm ready to ask.....which god should I address the inquiry to?
I've noticed that atheists as a group have something in common with God in that both strongly believe in the biblical First Commandment, usually summed up as "Thou shalt have no other gods before me".
Atheists will not be subordinate to any god. Neither will God. In this way, atheists are just like God. By adopting for themselves what in essence is God's First Commandment, atheists have made themselves His peer group.
Atheists are asking the wrong party when they ask us to produce evidence that, by its definition, cannot be measured using earthly tools. Ain't gonna happen. Atheists need to ask this of God Himself. Atheists need to ask God to break the laws of physics and throw them a bone. This is well within God's power.
Except atheists won't ask Him, as that would have them subordinate themselves to a god, so they ask us instead, knowing we can't deliver. For His part, God ain't answering atheists, because, as He once said, He will not have other gods before Him. He requires subordination.
So, there is the impasse.
Atheists don't talk to god because they do not see a good reason to believe there is one to talk TO. So that's an interesting theory you have, it's just that it's dead on arrival. By definition of the word "atheist" which is, "a person who does not believe in any deities".
In declining belief in god, we do not thereby elevate ourselves to godhead. To do that we would have to claim omniscience (which we don't do, particularly in that the vast majority of us aren't making a knowledge claim about god's non-existence). We do not claim to know everything, to be all powerful, or to be all-benevolent, or to have some kind if inherent authority over others.
What you wrongly perceive as making ourselves some sort of supreme authority (without, of course, asking us about our actual reasons or motives -- it appears you have some sort of mind reading abilities) is actually simply taking personal responsibility for our beliefs and actions in the world. Rather than say "god told me to do x" we say "I thought it best to do x" and in doing so we accept responsibility for the success or failure of that decision as well as for the intended and unintended consequences to others. Rather than arrogantly claim divine sanction for our beliefs and actions, we own our own beliefs and moral positions. Which is actually humility-inducing. No heavenly robes to hide behind. We might be -- and sometimes are -- wrong. Happily, though, not being encumbered by an immutable, rigid, legalistic list of do's and don'ts, we can change our views based on experience and new information, and thus improve our effectiveness.
I'm ready to ask.....which god should I address the inquiry to?
Well, I think you are actually not ready to ask God anything but only say it that way as a strategic and clever preface to your question. Ok, that’s cool. Since it is I whom you are asking, though, of course I’d direct you to a specific One whom I have been inculcated to believe. However, as an atheist, you are in a remarkable position, more than I, to start from scratch (10 points to anyone who caught the oblique and inadvertent reference there) and evaluate the deities that are out there from which to choose (or create your own) and place your petition(s) to the choice you make. Some folks try out a different few before they settle on a one, I’ve read. I’d say, do your due diligence before choosing. Don’t panic, you’ve got your whole life to do this.
Although, may I suggest that, when you do place your petitions, you avoid saying anything strategic and clever, as you did here? I may be cool with it, but a sincere petition works best.
Atheists don't talk to god because they do not see a good reason to believe there is one to talk TO. So that's an interesting theory you have, it's just that it's dead on arrival. By definition of the word "atheist" which is, "a person who does not believe in any deities".
In declining belief in god, we do not thereby elevate ourselves to godhead. To do that we would have to claim omniscience (which we don't do, particularly in that the vast majority of us aren't making a knowledge claim about god's non-existence). We do not claim to know everything, to be all powerful, or to be all-benevolent, or to have some kind if inherent authority over others.
What you wrongly perceive as making ourselves some sort of supreme authority (without, of course, asking us about our actual reasons or motives -- it appears you have some sort of mind reading abilities) is actually simply taking personal responsibility for our beliefs and actions in the world. Rather than say "god told me to do x" we say "I thought it best to do x" and in doing so we accept responsibility for the success or failure of that decision as well as for the intended and unintended consequences to others. Rather than arrogantly claim divine sanction for our beliefs and actions, we own our own beliefs and moral positions. Which is actually humility-inducing. No heavenly robes to hide behind. We might be -- and sometimes are -- wrong. Happily, though, not being encumbered by an immutable, rigid, legalistic list of do's and don'ts, we can change our views based on experience and new information, and thus improve our effectiveness.
In agreement with you, I don’t expect an atheist to accept the premise of my creative comparison and I hope I had explained as much in a subsequent post (currently Post #237 on page 24). From a theist point of view, however, my thought path is interesting and not empty. It could explain to theists why atheists come up empty when petitioning other humans for extraordinary proof.
Nor am I saying that atheists make themselves out to be a deity. In that same subsequent post, I put forth the opposite.
You likely responded immediately after reading the post of mine that you had recapped in your response before you saw and read the subsequent post. Easy to do in long threads of many pages.
It seems people don't understand what religion is. Religion is about belief. Belief in things (or power) that is not evident. If it can be proved objectively, it's not religion anymore - it would be science.
This way of thinking is western. We want to see things with our eyes. Was Jesus for real? Did Moses part the waters?
There are hundreds of millions Buddhists in the world. Do they say: if you can't show me Buddha's grave, I'm not going to be part of this religion. I also need forensic proof that he was fat and had 1000 arms! It's simply the eastern way.
Atheists don't talk to god because they do not see a good reason to believe there is one to talk TO. So that's an interesting theory you have, it's just that it's dead on arrival. By definition of the word "atheist" which is, "a person who does not believe in any deities".
I forgot to point out, please, that my theory, as I wrote it, relies on the fact that you state above, that atheists do not see a good reason to believe there is a god to talk to. I had included your statement in my theory, worded differently. Please look for it. I can understand that you may be understanding me to suggest that atheists see a god but just won't subordinate to it. I really meant your wording, that atheists see no god to subordinate to. My theory is not dead on arrival since you and I actually agree on this.
To clarify elsewhere, my theory means to say that atheists declare themselves a peer group only by coincidence as would be noticed by theists (or maybe by just me), not by any conscious choice of atheists. Atheists don't care to imitate any First Commandment, of course.
I am hoping to relieve you here of any need to defend that you do not acknowledge a higher power when I know, and my theory sought to state, that you do not. The thrust of my theory is to offer to the OP why it can't work to solicit here for evidence under the conditions specified by the OP.
Last edited by sylvianfisher; 06-06-2016 at 01:58 AM..
Well, I think you are actually not ready to ask God anything but only say it that way as a strategic and clever preface to your question. Ok, that’s cool. Since it is I whom you are asking, though, of course I’d direct you to a specific One whom I have been inculcated to believe. However, as an atheist, you are in a remarkable position, more than I, to start from scratch (10 points to anyone who caught the oblique and inadvertent reference there) and evaluate the deities that are out there from which to choose (or create your own) and place your petition(s) to the choice you make. Some folks try out a different few before they settle on a one, I’ve read. I’d say, do your due diligence before choosing. Don’t panic, you’ve got your whole life to do this.
Although, may I suggest that, when you do place your petitions, you avoid saying anything strategic and clever, as you did here? I may be cool with it, but a sincere petition works best.
Condescend much?
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