Positive religious thread from a *gasp* non believer (bible, religious leader, Jewish)
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I'm just wondering what you would do if you felt your church was endorsing something you personally didn't think was right? Would you keep quiet or would you speak up?
I am in a position of pastoral leadership. I am not a dictator, so I don't simply decree something and it's done. I don't have that authority.
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As an example, if women weren't allowed leadership roles and you didn't agree how would you handle it?
In my church we do have a woman that does announcements prior to church. I do not believe women should be pastors or elders, but we do have a woman serving on the church board. I am not responsible for determining who is or is not on the board -- and she was there long before I got here. Having said that, I consider her to be among the most devout of the people in my church and consider her an asset to the church. I am not aware of any other way a woman would really be in leadership as you suggested.
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On the flip side what if your church started accepting LGBT or women leaders if you didn't agree? Is there anything going on in your church right now that makes you uncomfortable?
If my organization started sending female pastors or homosexual pastors to churches I would resign. I don't see that happening anytime soon, as I know the Director and Associate Directors and I know what they value. My organization's board of directors has adopted a resolution that prevents me from officiating a same sex marriage.
Thank you. You have perfectly paraphrased how I feel.
You are very welcome, Katz!
We may not agree on theology, but on this we are in agreement. I have no prerequisites for showing love and support. I may get a little heated and say things I don't mean, or say some overly harsh things sometimes on here, but make no mistake.... If anyone on this site needed some love and support, I would be happy to provide if able!
I see it as a political stunt. The LDS church is still smarting after the Prop 8 backlash and they want to be seen in a good light. They're wetting their fingers and putting them in the air to see which way the wind is blowing.
Oh, now I see where you're coming from! Okay, just to make it absolutely clear, neither the "Rainbow Mormon Initiative" nor "Mormons Building Bridges" are sponsored, sanctioned or endorsed by the LDS Church. You are so far off base in your assumption that it's not even funny. The Church has absolutely nothing to do with either of these groups. And, as a matter of fact, I think that most of the LDS people who are a part of these groups and their activities have been a little bit hesitant to become involved (as was I). We don't want to be seen as apostates or be subject to any negative repercussions. It's just that we are willing to follow our conscience with respect to how we believe the LGBT community is treated by our church.
I think you are misunderstanding Vizio. It isn't that they "endorse sin", it is that they show love and support to those who would otherwise be marginalized or looked down upon. You do realize that you can do those things without "endorsing" their activities, right?
Did you read the article? If you didn't, I suggest you do so, instead of jumping to conclusions. If you did, then I suggest you read it again, as they clearly aren't saying "Homosexuality is great!" or anything like that. They are simply showing that they are there if needed, and they aren't going to look down on you if you happen to be gay.
See, unless you tell them that they're going to hell forever and actively make them feel bad about themselves, you're endorsing sin. It's how it works.
How it's intolerant to point out something decent a church is doing, but some how pious to say 'wow, another religious hate thread' when a story about a massive scheme to cover up multiple child rapes is beyond me. I guess child rape is a less severe sin? Or perhaps being critical is just the worst sin? Best to just stick with saying bad things about gay people. Solid middle ground, I guess.
But good for the Mormons. I like Mormons. They've got some crazy beliefs, but from my experience, most of them are fairly nice. At least to other people. There's some stuff going on in their internal affairs that could probably make the Vatican jealous, but that's how it goes I guess.
How it's intolerant to point out something decent a church is doing, but some how pious to say 'wow, another religious hate thread' when a story about a massive scheme to cover up multiple child rapes is beyond me.
I was waiting for, and not surprised by, someone on the fundamentalist side of things opining that this is "promoting" or "condoning" or "approving of" sin.
Supposing that the Mormons decided to wear some kind of signifier of their solidarity with Syrian refugees? Aren't Syrians sinners, too? Aren't some of them even gay? How do you express empathy, compassion and solidarity with anyone's plight without the person or group you are empathizing with being a sinner?
Is THAT "condoning" sin too?
No, I suspect it's only tolerating / condoning / approving / promoting sin if it's on a short list of particularly egregious sins, mostly having to do with sex. And the inescapable conclusion is that people who engage in those particular sins are "less than". Less than the accuser, and less even then those who merely get divorced or don't go to church or don't believe.
On the other hand some evangelicals are more logically consistent in that they don't really approve of any good works toward the needy or disadvantaged or unfortunate unless it is a vehicle for, and conditional upon, overt proselytization. They call attempts to improve the human condition with no strings attached, "the social gospel". Because they really feel at some level that all human suffering is somehow directly or indirectly the victim's fault somehow, and that human suffering can't be remedied until sin is repented of. And then it will just sort of fix itself because god always blesses his favorites and curses his opponents.
I was waiting for, and not surprised by, someone on the fundamentalist side of things opining that this is "promoting" or "condoning" or "approving of" sin.
Supposing that the Mormons decided to wear some kind of signifier of their solidarity with Syrian refugees? Aren't Syrians sinners, too? Aren't some of them even gay? How do you express empathy, compassion and solidarity with anyone's plight without the person or group you are empathizing with being a sinner?
Is THAT "condoning" sin too?
There is nothing about being a Syrian that is contradictory to Christianity. Why would you ask such a thing?
See, unless you tell them that they're going to hell forever and actively make them feel bad about themselves, you're endorsing sin. It's how it works.
Here's a quote from one of my favorite LDS leaders. It was actually something he saw on a bumper sticker and liked:
Don't judge me because I sin differently from you.
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There's some stuff going on in their internal affairs that could probably make the Vatican jealous, but that's how it goes I guess.
Supposing that the Mormons decided to wear some kind of signifier of their solidarity with Syrian refugees?
Actually, we already have. A number of the Church's upper leadership spoke at the Church's last General Conference (in April), encouraging us to get involved helping the refugees from Syria and elsewhere.
Maybe you wouldn't ask questions, but if you knew for a fact that the person who needed something you could provide him was gay, would you still provide it? If the answer is "yes," how would you feel about someone accusing you of "endorsing sin"?
It is worth noting that Vizio skip past Katz question here without answering .
It is worth noting that Vizio skip past Katz question here without answering .
A common tactic of his.
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