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...or to grow up being taught that you do the "right thing" robotically, to avoid heinous punishment and shaming, rather than being taught empathy, compassion and loving kindness.
it's not an either-or situation. it's not one or the other.
both are present in pretty much every aspect and choice of "trying to do the right thing"
do i drive my car at a safe speed to avoid the punishment of a fine or losing my license?
or do i drive my car at a safe speed to embody kindness and concern for the safety and well-being of others?
one appeals to our "lower" self which is selfish and self-absorbed (fear of punishment); the teenager probably responds better to the fear of losing his drivers license and car privileges. this is a less mature and more superficial understanding
the other appeals to our "higher" self which is motivated by compassion, kindness, and concern for others. this is a more mature and more in-depth understanding.
This is how religion treats people--by creating mythological "threats" and offering the ONLY solution as being available in the church.
not all religions do that, so the statement is not accurate or correct.
my religion has a list of "do this" and "don't do this."
the focus is not on punishment, but on natural consequences of our actions.
following the list increases the flow of peace and harmony in my life and in the world. ignoring the list reduces the flow of peace and harmony in my life and in the world.
the Divine is always sending into our lives peace, blessings, harmony, and abundance like water flowing from a faucet. it's up to me whether i do my part to receive them, or push away the faucet so to speak (like on the kitchen sink, where it moves). when i don't follow the list (of do this, don't do this) then that is me pushing away the faucet. God's natural state is to give and give and give and constantly pour forth and bestow blessing.
does a person feel "punished" if they eat so much fatty food they end up having heart surgery? (i worked in a cardiac hospital hence the example). No, that is not a punishment, it is a natural consequence of the actions a person takes.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-30-2016 at 04:04 PM..
it's not an either-or situation. it's not one or the other.
both are present in pretty much every aspect and choice of "trying to do the right thing"
True, and an honest parent will admit that sometimes they resort to "because I told you so" because the little lawyers that are their children will try to tie them up in objections otherwise.
But some parents know nothing other than rules and punishments, scarcely sometimes even have a concept of rewards. To threaten a child with abandonment for any provocation, constitutes emotional abuse and parental malpractice.
True, and an honest parent will admit that sometimes they resort to "because I told you so" because the little lawyers that are their children will try to tie them up in objections otherwise.
But some parents know nothing other than rules and punishments, scarcely sometimes even have a concept of rewards. To threaten a child with abandonment for any provocation, constitutes emotional abuse and parental malpractice.
I agree. That's horrifying and abusive. Poor scared kids.
Sin exists in Judaism as well, although we differ greatly from Christianity in several areas.
For us, failing to follow any of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that apply to us is a sin. Failing to give tzadakah (often translated as charity) to the needy is a sin. Being hateful to others is a sin. Being dishonest in business is a sin. Failing to keep kosher is a sin.
But we don't hold that anyone other than us are required to follow our laws, and we don't believe in eternal punishment for committing a sin; we rectify the situation by making it right with anyone we have wronged, by teshuvah (atonement), and by altering our behavior to keep from doing the action in the future.
Depending on how you define "sin", I'd say that just about every belief system is going to some concept of it.
I was raised in a strict Catholic household in the 50's and 60s. At an early age, I gathered that sin was whatever I enjoyed doing.
I could either continue to believe that was true because some old dead guys wrote some stuff that was collected in a book - OR - I could follow my conscience.
Around the age of 14 or 15 I decided to follow my conscience and try to avoid doing things that made me feel bad, instead of things that nuns and priests told me was bad.
From then on, I haven't have much trouble going to sleep.
not all religions do that, so the statement is not accurate or correct.
my religion has a list of "do this" and "don't do this."
the focus is not on punishment, but on natural consequences of our actions.
following the list increases the flow of peace and harmony in my life and in the world. ignoring the list reduces the flow of peace and harmony in my life and in the world.
the Divine is always sending into our lives peace, blessings, harmony, and abundance like water flowing from a faucet. it's up to me whether i do my part to receive them, or push away the faucet so to speak (like on the kitchen sink, where it moves). when i don't follow the list (of do this, don't do this) then that is me pushing away the faucet. God's natural state is to give and give and give and constantly pour forth and bestow blessing.
does a person feel "punished" if they eat so much fatty food they end up having heart surgery? (i worked in a cardiac hospital hence the example). No, that is not a punishment, it is a natural consequence of the actions a person takes.
But the difference is whether the effect on your own person is your own doing or someone else's. If I "eat so much fatty food they end up having heart surgery", that is one thing. But if someone tells me that I have to pay them fifty dollars a month for life or I get wasted, is it my doing? The argument goes that it could be argues I had the choice to pay up or not so it wasn't murder. In fact I chose to commit suicide by not paying up.
I do hope you can see the difference between consequences of our own actions in a world that just acts naturally, and of our own actions in a set of rules and demands imposed by an Intelligence that has its own agenda.
Of course I am talking about rather specific personal gods here, but I am never clear where a pantheist god fits in. If in fact it is just nature then our feelings of awe and reverence mean nothing to anyone but us. If it is an intelligence that doesn't interfere and doesn't need oyr feelings of aw and reverence, then it is a difference that makes no difference.
Of course I am talking about rather specific personal gods here, but I am never clear where a pantheist god fits in. If in fact it is just nature then our feelings of awe and reverence mean nothing to anyone but us. If it is an intelligence that doesn't interfere and doesn't need our feelings of awe and reverence, then it is a difference that makes no difference.
I think that here in "Christendom", many pantheists (or just theists who pick up on some pantheistic notions) are heavily influenced by Christian thought in various ways, which tends to leak back into their views. So sometimes we get a sort of hybrid or "mashup" of Christian and pantheist notions. Strictly speaking, pantheism doesn't have a god-concept anything like Christianity so any similar notions being advanced by an avowed pantheist are probably a custom brew of their own design -- or in some cases simply an ill-considered mish-mash) rather than actual pantheism.
Come to think of it, the same could be said for the New Age movement or panentheism or paganism because there isn't a dominant centralized definer of orthodoxy in those kinds of movements. The Abrahamic faiths and to a lesser extent some Eastern religions are far more institutionalized and established, for all their fragmentation. It can be hard to pin down anything to be truly "pantheist thought" or dogma.
Sin exists in Judaism as well, although we differ greatly from Christianity in several areas.
For us, failing to follow any of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that apply to us is a sin. Failing to give tzadakah (often translated as charity) to the needy is a sin. Being hateful to others is a sin. Being dishonest in business is a sin. Failing to keep kosher is a sin.
But we don't hold that anyone other than us are required to follow our laws, and we don't believe in eternal punishment for committing a sin; we rectify the situation by making it right with anyone we have wronged, by teshuvah (atonement), and by altering our behavior to keep from doing the action in the future.
Ahh but there's the rub.. you do need atonement. That is where the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jakob is different from all other. There is a need for atonement, there's a need for sacrifice to cleanse our sins, there's even a day for it, Yom Kippur.
Wikipedia on Yom Kippur (correct me if wikipedia's wrong) The evening and day of Yom Kippur are set aside for public and private petitions and confessions of guilt. At the end of Yom Kippur, one hopes that they have been forgiven by God.
So only after atonement, there's hope for forgiveness.
From the Talmud: "Yom Kippur atones for those who repent and does not atone for those who do not repent". So your sins are not forgiven, without repentance (teshuvah is not the atonement, it's repentance), only then does the atonement apply to your sins.
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, the atonement is wrought by a mediator, the High Priest, on behalf of the people.
Leviticus 16:30-34 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments: And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation. And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
So by the atonement sacrifice performed by someone else, the High Priest, the people are cleansed from their sin. Only the High Priest can enter the holy of holies to make that sacrifice, first for himself and his household, and for all of Israel. That's how sin is atoned for right? Maybe nowadays it's not practised exactly as prescribed in Leviticus 16? But the need for sacrificial atonement and a mediator between us and God, is still the same as it was then.
[Edit: See also Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls:for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. As the blood of the animal sacrifices were the atonement for the souls of the children of Israel then, so is the blood of Yeshua ha Mashiach the atonement for all the children of God - both Jew and Gentile - that believe in Yeshua, now.]
And you see, your God is my God. But the way sins are forgiven has changed when Mashiach came. It is by faith in Yeshua now. Because through the atonement for my sins by Yeshua ha Mashiach, the Sacrifice for our sins, I have been forgiven by God. He is that Great High Priest, but He never needed to sacrifice for Himself, because He is the Sacrifice for our sins that the entire Tanakh including Yom Kippur was pointing to.
Shalom
Last edited by Chanokh; 05-31-2016 at 11:33 AM..
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