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As a Pagan we don't believe in sin that's a Christian concept I can't think of any other religion that believes in sin. We don't preach against sin as someone else says we don't even preach.
Doing something you know is wrong is choice not sinful we don't believe in some devil whispering into you ear making you do something you know is wrong.
If you read the bible you will see that it was God who create sin not man & not because Eve took a bite of an apple/fruit.
No. At least that's not what I was grappling toward.
I just have a sense that everything that exists is connected. And by more than sub-atomic particles/stardust. And that the sum of those connections may be God. And I'm just mulling the possibility that because it IS all, it may have no sense of an individual self.
And because the universe is expanding as is our population, adding more consciousness to the "pile," perhaps God is still growing too.
I've only been considering this line of thought for a few months. Mebbe I'll be able to find better words when I've mulled more.
Right, no, I get you. I have had that same sense since even before the shackles of fundamentalist Christianity crumbled. But when I read your post, the "train of thought" idea popped into my head and intrigued me. That, collectively, we all comprise the mind of God.
As a Pagan we don't believe in sin that's a Christian concept I can't think of any other religion that believes in sin.
I think a Christian would consider such a statement to reflect that you're in huge denial. That's because they're so accustomed to seeing "sin" as the obvious / axiomatic / self-evident explanation for human folly and frailty. Saying that you don't believe in sin is, for them, tantamount to saying that you don't believe people do bad things or that you don't think morality is a good idea.
I prefer to say that I don't see the doctrine of sin as a valid explanation for the harms people cause in the world. Indeed, I see the notion of "utter depravity" as a huge confirmation bias. I have come to see that most people, most of the time, mean well and try their best to do well. That doesn't mean they can't be misguided or clueless about judging benefits and harms, or the best way to arrive at beneficial actions. That doesn't mean they can't be so self-unaware that they are running virtually on autopilot through life. It doesn't mean that some of them aren't sociopathic or just plain toxic. But on the other hand neither does it mean that they are 100% lost sheep who can never see their rational self-interest. And it doesn't mean they can't be inspired to do better, or that they aren't capable of being better.
Treat people like depraved vermin and they will probably live up to that expectation. Treat them like adults and appeal to the "better angels of their nature" and they may well live up to THAT expectation.
Hinduism almost believes in "original sin" in that we "exist as such" because of our "mistake" of "originally separating" our atman (psyche, soul, spirit, voodoo, etc) from the Brahma (Creator, God, Diety, etc).
It's not really seen as something to feel guilty about or be punished for, just a matter-of-fact "reason" for the existence of inequities.
I didn't know that, but that falls more in line with how I see it, personally.
Original sin is nothing more than our human propensity to do things that harm ourselves and other creatures and our planet, and the idea is to strive to be better than what we are by nature. Our flaws are what separates us from God--however God is defined or by whatever term is used in place of what some of us call "God" , and our striving to be better is what brings us closer.
No. At least that's not what I was grappling toward.
I just have a sense that everything that exists is connected. And by more than sub-atomic particles/stardust. And that the sum of those connections may be God. And I'm just mulling the possibility that because it IS all, it may have no sense of an individual self.
And because the universe is expanding as is our population, adding more consciousness to the "pile," perhaps God is still growing too.
I've only been considering this line of thought for a few months. Mebbe I'll be able to find better words when I've mulled more.
Keep mulling. It's an interesting line of thought, and the type of thing I'd like to see more of on this forum--intelligent thought and discussion on spirituality rather than our usual mudslinging, to which I've been a hearty and active participant.
Right, no, I get you. I have had that same sense since even before the shackles of fundamentalist Christianity crumbled. But when I read your post, the "train of thought" idea popped into my head and intrigued me. That, collectively, we all comprise the mind of God.
Good post. Yes, Pleroo, we DO comprise at least our species' part of God's consciousness but not until our death and only after we eliminate the dross. Until then, we are only embryonic Consciousness.
I didn't know that, but that falls more in line with how I see it, personally.
Original sin is nothing more than our human propensity to do things that harm ourselves and other creatures and our planet, and the idea is to strive to be better than what we are by nature. Our flaws are what separates us from God--however God is defined or by whatever term is used in place of what some of us call "God" , and our striving to be better is what brings us closer.
Thank you.
No, thank you. The general Christian concept of "original sin" seems to come from a need to uplift Bibliolatry of some of Paul's letters and NT stories. Paul says that all fall short of perfection (sinlessness), and Jesus (in an adulteress story that older NT versions didn't have) shows that no one (except him/and excepting him?) is without sin and thus no one can punish a sinner since they themselves are also guilty and unpunished.
Then there is the idea that "no one can enter the kingdom unless baptized by water and wind/breath/spirit" so then one would think that babies can't enter the kingdom, unless baptized. Then there is the idea that you must believe in Jesus as a NEW TESTAMENT prerequisite for allowance into Heaven, and since babies and random good people who haven't even heard about any of the disparate Messianic ideas can't believe in Jesus, then there has to be a reason why they are "guilty" of something to prevent them from being "saved" by a Hero figure.
So although we aren't thought of as Adam and Eve's reincarnations (and Adam and Eve aren't thought of as departing from God other than by being set-up not to follow his rules) then somehow just being descended from sinners makes you a sinner even as a baby. Although some say it's only once you start reaching puberty for some reason. Which would mean that a lot of non-Christian children would be sad and confused to find themselves in Heaven missing their beloved parents and family but having to live with Christians for eternity although they themselves never were.
No, thank you. The general Christian concept of "original sin" seems to come from a need to uplift Bibliolatry of some of Paul's letters and NT stories. Paul says that all fall short of perfection (sinlessness), and Jesus (in an adulteress story that older NT versions didn't have) shows that no one (except him/and excepting him?) is without sin and thus no one can punish a sinner since they themselves are also guilty and unpunished.
Actually no, Paul didn't make this up, and it's not a New Testament thing.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Psalm 14:1-3 {To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.} The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Job 25:4-6 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Another point that I thought about - and it's NOT intended to be disrespectful or offensive.
If Jesus was Jewish then the God of Christianity is Jewish? Just doesn't seem logically correct.
And if Jesus is the son of God, then God chose the religion of Judaism for his son, but not for billions of Christians?
No, God doesn't have a religion. The story is that God offered Torah to people around the world, but only the Jews accepted it and chose the One True God as their own.
Now there were other people in the area who followed the God of the Jews even if they didn't follow Torah. They were called the God-Fearers.
Then along came Jesus, who was rejected by the Jews because he didn't match up with the prophecies of the Jewish Messiah, and they were not about to abandon Torah, but Christianity brought primarily non-Jewish people to the idea of the One True God. That's one POV, anyway.
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