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Even though I do think there is a collective purpose (that I cannot possibly understand), I could live with that!
I would want a bit more.Just sitting 'fine with where I am' (as someone posted) satisfied with assuming there is some 'collective purpose' would be like...
"Because".
No, I need to look further and consider what this purpose could be, whether there needs to be one and indeed what the term even means. That is why I say rational and evidence- based enquiry is actually going further than accepting a big unknown, regarding it as some kind of deity, and refusing to look further and even denigrating those who do. No,I would want a bit more.
Yeah. A womb existence is like that you can't contact the parent directly. Good to see you posting more often Cruithne.
Yes. It is sort of like a prosecutor's lesser included offense. It is something that we must decide for ourselves but it is part of the overall purpose for our species which we also have to try and discern.
Well, I suppose if we believe that the Dinosaurs were conscious as we are (not mere animal awareness) that would be true. It takes a human-like consciousness even to consider such issues.
That presupposes that this earthly existence is anything other than a production factory for our real existence. It is our real existence that will be unaffected by the demise of the earth.
I agree, it does take a human-like consciousness to consider our individual purpose but what I'm talking about in this context is what is our collective purpose for being here? What is the collective purpose of anything being here? I don't mean in the sense that it is something we need to consider I mean, in terms of the 'purpose' you think your god has set for us, whether we had human-like consciousness or not. If dinosaurs had no conscious thought then their purpose was simply to exist and pro-create. Then why are we any different? Because we possess language? Did god make a huge mistake with the dinosaurs? They were arguably more successful in many ways then we have been so far. They survived a thousand times longer than we have so far and lived in harmony with their environment.
Also can you elaborate on what you mean by human-like consciousness, because I think from a theists perspective, this must present an absolute minefield.
We are 98% genetically similar to chimpanzees. Chimps possess rudimentary language, social systems, use of tools and self awareness. Some unfortunate humans are born without those abilities. Other animals that are self aware include other primates, dogs, cats, elephants and even octopi. So where do you draw the line?
As an atheist I don't believe in the concept of sin.
I just believe that people should respect one another, be nice to one another and not hurt one another or other animals.
The Golden Rule basically.
As long as people live by this I'm basically good with how people live their lives.
I can't remember the thread or the poster now but I noted the other day an atheist using the term 'sin' as though it were a thing, presumably a remnant from a past history as a Christian.
I'm interested to know if other religions other than Christianity hold with the concept of sin?
For once I didn't find wikipedia particularly helpful on the subject. It's a bit vague from the perspective of religions other than Christianity: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin
Please no meanness / prosthelytzing or lecturing me or anyone else that they are going to hell for being an atheist in this thread. That's so missing the point.
Otherwise please contribute from an educational perspective. Thanks.
It is called sin in Christianity before humans could even develop the concept of Law. In terms of laws, sin refers to crimes. Sin, as described precisely by the Bible, is a violation of God's Law. In today's legal term, it is thus a crime.
It is called sin in Christianity before humans could even develop the concept of Law. In terms of laws, sin refers to crimes. Sin, as described precisely by the Bible, is a violation of God's Law. In today's legal term, it is thus a crime.
No it isn't. That's nonsense.
Violations of 'gods laws according to the bible' have nothing to do with the legal system.
No law should be based in anything 'because the bible says so'. Ever heard of separation of church and state?
Lots of laws are in opposition of things that are stated in the bible and vice versa.
If you want to refer to the original purpose of the thread, the question was asking about whether the concept of sin exists in other religions.
Certainly in a Legal system not now based on theology (though originally it probably was) a violation of human law, not divine law is a crime, but a Sin is a violation of divine law.
I noted in Buddhism, the harshest hell they have is reserved for, on the one hand, civil crimes that human law would recognize - willfully killing a father or mother. But also for causing dissent in religion, which is a matter on which humanist or civil law would say with Pilate "See to it yourselves".
Religious violations or "Sins' do not belong in civil law, nor human morality, even if they may at times overlap.
No it isn't. That's nonsense.
Violations of 'gods laws according to the bible' have nothing to do with the legal system.
No law should be based in anything 'because the bible says so'. Ever heard of separation of church and state?
Lots of laws are in opposition of things that are stated in the bible and vice versa.
If you want to refer to the original purpose of the thread, the question was asking about whether the concept of sin exists in other religions.
Yes, it has all to do with God's legal system. It's your mistake to fail to comprehend.
1 John 3:4 (NIV)
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
Yes, it has all to do with God's legal system. It's your mistake to fail to comprehend.
1 John 3:4 (NIV)
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
If I failed to comprehend then perhaps you didn't explain yourself clearly.
You are referring to what you term 'Gods legal system'. In that case you need to make a distinction between this and what you referred to as 'today's legal term' implying that what you read in the bible somehow has something to do with today's legal system, which clearly it does not.
Today's legal system doesn't look too kindly on slavery for example.
It might help if perhaps you could be more specific about what you consider to be 'Gods law' and what you consider sinful. Are you talking about the 10 commandments say or the entirety of the bible?
Yeah. A womb existence is like that you can't contact the parent directly. Good to see you posting more often Cruithne. Yes. It is sort of like a prosecutor's lesser included offense. It is something that we must decide for ourselves but it is part of the overall purpose for our species which we also have to try and discern.Well, I suppose if we believe that the Dinosaurs were conscious as we are (not mere animal awareness) that would be true. It takes a human-like consciousness even to consider such issues. That presupposes that this earthly existence is anything other than a production factory for our real existence. It is our real existence that will be unaffected by the demise of the earth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruithne
I agree, it does take a human-like consciousness to consider our individual purpose but what I'm talking about in this context is what is our collective purpose for being here? What is the collective purpose of anything being here? I don't mean in the sense that it is something we need to consider I mean, in terms of the 'purpose' you think your god has set for us, whether we had human-like consciousness or not. If dinosaurs had no conscious thought then their purpose was simply to exist and pro-create. Then why are we any different? Because we possess language? Did god make a huge mistake with the dinosaurs? They were arguably more successful in many ways then we have been so far. They survived a thousand times longer than we have so far and lived in harmony with their environment.
The issue of our collective purpose is a tough one. I converse with a lot of Mensans who are notoriously nuanced thinkers and there is no consensus pro or con. The one that resonates the most with me given my universal consciousness views is that we exist because God wanted to know itself. Our evolutionary destiny is to help God get a good look by investigating, observing, and emulating nature. If we accept my idea of a universal consciousness then the universe has but one purpose and evolution moves in one direction, toward the development of a vast network of a nervous system that serves a universal consciousness.
We, as individuals, are merely neurons in the maintenance and growth of what is a universal "brain." We can see the embedded pattern of this reflected in the evolution of our species from the simplest brain stem of the lower life forms to our complex brain-mind, but especially in the Spiritual fossil record of our observations and musings. That spiritual fossil record reveals what we uniquely are capable of out of all the species in existence that we know of. It reveals the state of our contributions to the universal consciousness. The spiritual evolution is clear and bespeaks of an interactive process between our efforts and the universal consciousness. There is no reason to think it is or has ever been otherwise.
Quote:
Also can you elaborate on what you mean by human-like consciousness, because I think from a theists perspective, this must present an absolute minefield.
We are 98% genetically similar to chimpanzees. Chimps possess rudimentary language, social systems, use of tools and self awareness. Some unfortunate humans are born without those abilities. Other animals that are self aware include other primates, dogs, cats, elephants and even octopi. So where do you draw the line?
Our unique consciousness is sort of like what one judge said about pornography, "it is difficult to define it but I know it when I see it."
The issue of our collective purpose is a tough one. I converse with a lot of Mensans who are notoriously nuanced thinkers and there is no consensus pro or con. The one that resonates the most with me given my universal consciousness views is that we exist because God wanted to know itself. Our evolutionary destiny is to help God get a good look by investigating, observing, and emulating nature. If we accept my idea of a universal consciousness then the universe has but one purpose and evolution moves in one direction, toward the development of a vast network of a nervous system that serves a universal consciousness.
We, as individuals, are merely neurons in the maintenance and growth of what is a universal "brain." We can see the embedded pattern of this reflected in the evolution of our species from the simplest brain stem of the lower life forms to our complex brain-mind, but especially in the Spiritual fossil record of our observations and musings. That spiritual fossil record reveals what we uniquely are capable of out of all the species in existence that we know of. It reveals the state of our contributions to the universal consciousness. The spiritual evolution is clear and bespeaks of an interactive process between our efforts and the universal consciousness. There is no reason to think it is or has ever been otherwise.
Our unique consciousness is sort of like what one judge said about pornography, "it is difficult to define it but I know it when I see it."
It's a very interesting theory, to me very much in the same ball-park as a comment TroutDude made a few weeks ago about a god that is maybe 'evolving with us' (did I get that right TroutDude?)
This would certainly account for the child-like, tantrum throwing angry god of the new testament. It would account for playing around with bacteria and various species, having the dinosaurs take their turn around the earth a few hundred millennia while he had a bit of a rest and put his feet up after all the creation of the universe and all. Then thinking, 'right stuff that, lets give the humans a go'.
Kind of blows the whole infallible god idea out of the water though doesn't it? It's a god that does make mistakes and is learning as he goes along, like the rest of us. It means that this god is not 'all knowing' and is not 'all loving' either because we are all one giant experiment.
Sorry I know I'm joshing with you a bit but actually as god theories go I actually think it makes some sense. Really one of you guys should start a thread on it.
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Good to see you posting more often Cruithne.
