The world is the best address (contradiction, pray, God, evolution)
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Without these dramatic changes, do you think we would have life as advanced as it is?
Each extinction event basically brought with it an evolution event. If not for basically an ice age around Ordovician-Silurian, the creatures that would dominate the land would be horseshoe crabs. If not for Devonian extinction, we would still have those sucky old coral varieties, and life would stay cozy in the sea. After the Permian mass extinction, we had dinosaurs, developed land plants, and loads of bug life. The Triassic-Jurassic period is often explained as an asteroid shower (but I don't buy it, because it was something that killed alot of animals but left plants largely unaffected). Because of this, we had more sophisticated mammals, dinosaurs, etc. Then Cretaceous extinction brought on a massive mammal diversity event.
All of this helped evolution along in stages. Random? Now horseshoe crabs are cold-resistant. You have a limited view of evolution, but these events helped everything. And no, evolution doesn't mean the thing becomes another thing, it's a branching effect. This is why we have monkeys and humans, sauropods (like iguanas), amphibians, and reptiles.
You see a bunch of random events. I see the progression of species. A larger picture.
In so far as using evolution as a reason for existence of life, I cannot see how it could possibly work, as the complexity that would be needed to start life is far too great a "thought" to accept. But this is man, some think that if they come up with a great thought they themselves will be regaled as a great thinker, regardless of the later outcome of that thought when it is superseded.
There is history, and then there is pre-history. History is what we know of us as humans over a period of time, and that is distorted to make it much longer than it is in reality, such as when man first began to write or other common day things that occurred in a much lesser time that the tens of thousands of years that some like to state. There seems to be no set history, (The Australian Aboriginals are said to be on this continent for between 10,000 and 60,000 years) Now honestly, is that history. and yet that is how modern history of man is told from time to time.
So, if modern history is so convoluted and mis-quoted, how much more is the stories of Pre-History where anyone can make an assertion and there is no possibility that it can be proved.
I do not even have any faith in the 'scientific' periods of time you take of actually happening. They are only the "Talk" of man and I feel sure that there are many different versions on the same theme. But that is my opinion.
My post was a simple show of my faith in a living Creator.
Very basic, very basic psycho analysis will tell that your post is not a show of faith. Actually, it IS show of faith.
You are not convincing others. You are not showing to god. You are trying to cover up your doubt and lack of true faith. As no one with true faith has to show it. One with true faith IS IN god. Then one simply cares no more about things discussed in this wonderful thread. Which is basically parroting "scientific" opinions that suite one's view on existence and discard other facts and opinions that do not.
Nihil novi ante sol.
I just note the obvious - life exists where it is conducive to life existing. It's not some amazing coincidence that life exists on a planet in the 'Goldilocks zone' around a stable single star far enough away from the hostile core of the galaxy. It exists here because the moon and black holes and the surface of Jupiter and flare stars and clusters and comets and myriad other places are downright lousy, if not impossible, places for life to exist.
It's the same reason that fish live in water and not inside volcanoes and that tropical plants don't live at the north pole.
The world is certainly an interesting place. But there are many trillions of places in our galaxy alone. It's just mathematics.
The fact that all these things that make earth the perfect place for human habitation are all in sync with each other, all interacting in perfect harmony for the conditions to happen. And if one should not preform as it is now, the whole system would self destruct, does this not make you have a suspicion that there just maybe a superior intelligence making it work?
Or, are you going to tell me that is is all by chance?
Correct - there were many extinctions, but the ones that I see as pivotal were the Triassic, which allowed dinosars to dominate and the Cretaceous, which allowed mammals to dominate. Without those, I don't think we'd be here.
Again, we have the envious position of speaking about prehistoric times as though they were a fact, as thought there were videos of things happening. (even then the videos may well be fakes and tricks of photography) Talk about believing in God as being hope and faith, the many stories of the scientific, or man reasons for things of the world need more than hope and faith, they need a mind that feels far superior to any thinking capability that has even been yet discovered.
Is there proof of these events, or is it supposition only?
Look at the latest scientific event now going on. Several countries are having a race in drilling ice cores in the polar regions. The news says that they are now about 30,000 years back in history and they are trying to get to 80,000 years. I am sure one of the other will get the desired time line, and it will be a big announcement, but what they find, if anything in the ice is a different matter.
The polar ice only settled on the poles after the flood of Noah's time IMO, and I can give as good an explanation as any scientist can for the other prehistoric events they propose.
In so far as using evolution as a reason for existence of life, I cannot see how it could possibly work, as the complexity that would be needed to start life is far too great a "thought" to accept. But this is man, some think that if they come up with a great thought they themselves will be regaled as a great thinker, regardless of the later outcome of that thought when it is superseded.
There is history, and then there is pre-history. History is what we know of us as humans over a period of time, and that is distorted to make it much longer than it is in reality, such as when man first began to write or other common day things that occurred in a much lesser time that the tens of thousands of years that some like to state. There seems to be no set history, (The Australian Aboriginals are said to be on this continent for between 10,000 and 60,000 years) Now honestly, is that history. and yet that is how modern history of man is told from time to time.
So, if modern history is so convoluted and mis-quoted, how much more is the stories of Pre-History where anyone can make an assertion and there is no possibility that it can be proved.
I do not even have any faith in the 'scientific' periods of time you take of actually happening. They are only the "Talk" of man and I feel sure that there are many different versions on the same theme. But that is my opinion.
Marakorpa, you misunderstand.
I believe in God and evolution. I believe God wants us to grow and improve as a people.
Evolution isn't the reason for life. God is. God is also responsible for humans not being apelike furry ppl, but cute and hairless (evolution from stupider primates).
My beef is actually with "certain people" who see the steadily increasing nature of the universe and fail to see any kind of pattern in it. Any sort of cause behind it.
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Is there proof of these events, or is it supposition only?
I think there are layered fossil records. The Earth is much like a tree in that you can peel down its layers, starting with a magma core, and outward to simple critters like trillobytes then more and more complicated.
I am always amazed at Jehovah's creation, aren't you?
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Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144
So yeah, among all of these million bigger or weirder planets, this kinda is a Goldilocks.
The "goldilocks zone" argument which you are both essentially presenting would only be as amazing as you claim if in fact there was only a few rolls of those dice. A few star systems or galaxies.
But the reality is that there are barely imaginable numbers of them, billions. So being amazed at these things is like being amazed that I won the national lottery 5 times in a row........ until such time as you find out I bought 100million tickets for each one.
Further the "goldilocks" fallacy presumes that our life is the only type possible. It looks at OUR kind of life and then says "isn't it amazing our solar system is JUST right for life?".
Douglas Adams described this fallacy well when he made an analogy to a puddle becoming conscious. The puddle looks around and says "Oh my, how AMAZING is it that my universe (the hole the puddle finds itself in) is so PERFECTLY SHAPED to accommodate ME!"
The arrogance and hubris of that fallacy is palpable. The puddle formed to fit the hole, not the hole to fit the puddle. And had the hole been COMPLETELY different, the same puddle contemplating the perfect fit would have been difference.
The same arrogance and hubris is at play in the Goldilocks fallacy. Life arose in this solar system and arose to fit what was there, not the other way around.
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals
God does not come face to face and introduce himself by saying "Hi, I am God. And here you go, BOOM !! I turned this boulder into a goat. Is that enough of a proof of my existence?"
Nope, what your god DOES appear to do is act in a way that is ENTIRELY IDENTICAL to not existing at all. I remember an atheist being asked in a you tube debate "What do you even imagine a universe without a god would look like!" to which the atheist merely answered "this".
I can not think of a SINGLE action of your god at this point that is not entirely identical to that god not existing at all. There is no evidence of interventions. None of communication. Nothing.
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals
No matter what proof you put in front them, they will ALWAYS find an excuse to dismiss it.
If I NEVER gave my children vegetables, not once, ever.... would it not be nonsense for me to declare "If I gave it to them they would refuse to eat them"?
Of course it would be nonsense. I simply do not know what they will refuse, until such time as I actually try.
Similarly given you have NEVER offered a SHRED of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to suggest our universe or life was created by a non-human intentional and intelligent agency........ it is just a nonsense to declare you know we would refuse or dismiss it.
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals
when they see that fire on the judgement day
Scare Mongering and Threats are not evidence. Nor will they likely ever be.
The "goldilocks zone" argument which you are both essentially presenting would only be as amazing as you claim if in fact there was only a few rolls of those dice. A few star systems or galaxies.
But the reality is that there are barely imaginable numbers of them, billions. So being amazed at these things is like being amazed that I won the national lottery 5 times in a row........ until such time as you find out I bought 100million tickets for each one.
Further the "goldilocks" fallacy presumes that our life is the only type possible. It looks at OUR kind of life and then says "isn't it amazing our solar system is JUST right for life?".
Douglas Adams described this fallacy well when he made an analogy to a puddle becoming conscious. The puddle looks around and says "Oh my, how AMAZING is it that my universe (the hole the puddle finds itself in) is so PERFECTLY SHAPED to accommodate ME!"
The arrogance and hubris of that fallacy is palpable. The puddle formed to fit the hole, not the hole to fit the puddle. And had the hole been COMPLETELY different, the same puddle contemplating the perfect fit would have been difference.
The same arrogance and hubris is at play in the Goldilocks fallacy. Life arose in this solar system and arose to fit what was there, not the other way around.
Nope, what your god DOES appear to do is act in a way that is ENTIRELY IDENTICAL to not existing at all. I remember an atheist being asked in a you tube debate "What do you even imagine a universe without a god would look like!" to which the atheist merely answered "this".
I can not think of a SINGLE action of your god at this point that is not entirely identical to that god not existing at all. There is no evidence of interventions. None of communication. Nothing.
If I NEVER gave my children vegetables, not once, ever.... would it not be nonsense for me to declare "If I gave it to them they would refuse to eat them"?
Of course it would be nonsense. I simply do not know what they will refuse, until such time as I actually try.
Similarly given you have NEVER offered a SHRED of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to suggest our universe or life was created by a non-human intentional and intelligent agency........ it is just a nonsense to declare you know we would refuse or dismiss it.
Scare Mongering and Threats are not evidence. Nor will they likely ever be.
About all I got from this is that you say that evolution takes up to a 100 million attempts before it comes up with the goods., and even then it is by chance. It is because some people have a finite mind that they cannot see the vast array of evidence of creation in action. AS I said with the earth situation, all the system is in sync and you cannot take one away and it will continue to work, that is more than a 1 in a 100 million chance, it is more than by chance as well. Even if by chance was finite it still couldn't happen as during the process of getting it together, and the errors of each try, the system would destroy itself.
Even Jupiter, the giant planet and its position in sync with the earth, is there any significance to where it ? Jupiter is in a line with the earth and takes thousands of big hits from meteors that would create great havoc on earth, is that just by chance?
Nope, what your god DOES appear to do is act in a way that is ENTIRELY IDENTICAL to not existing at all.
Please define the definition of "non-existing" in your understanding.
Say, 1000 years ago when Uranium was not discovered, did it exist?
"Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence". Isn't that possible?
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I remember an atheist being asked in a you tube debate "What do you even imagine a universe without a god would look like!" to which the atheist merely answered "this".
Universe without a God? The first and simple question that basic human logic tends to ask is, "Who created the Universe then?"
The next counter question is, "who created God?"
The answer is, God is the creator and not the creation, and that what makes him God. If God is an entity that was "created" then it does not qualify to be a God.
If I vaguely remember, once you asked a valid question, which was along the lines of "one has to define God" before defining what will constitute as an evidence of it's existence.
So here is the first characteristic of God. Uncreated.
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I can not think of a SINGLE action of your god at this point that is not entirely identical to that god not existing at all. There is no evidence of interventions. None of communication. Nothing.
As I stated previously, faith in the existence of God is formed by looking at the "signs of God" and not the evidence.
A faith is not a faith anymore if it's based on evidence.
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Similarly given you have NEVER offered a SHRED of argument, evidence, data or reasoning to suggest our universe or life was created by a non-human intentional and intelligent agency........ it is just a nonsense to declare you know we would refuse or dismiss it.
Again, you demand "evidence" without even knowing what will constitute as an evidence? Do you want God to meet you in person and introduce himself by showing a miracle?
We discussed above that a characteristic of God is that God is uncreated. Tell me what evidence will you accept to validate this?
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Scare Mongering and Threats are not evidence. Nor will they likely ever be.
"Worship God or you will burn in Hell fire" <<~~ Perhaps this may be called "scare mongering and threats".
How conveniently you ignored the two facts below,
First, I said IF there is a God and heaven/Hell ... which means we are discussing a simple plane hypothetical scenario which could be true or false. That scares you?
Second, how conveniently you ignored the fact that I said " I hope it doesn't happen to anyone" - and it scared you, and you felt threatened? Seriously?
Please define the definition of "non-existing" in your understanding.
Say, 1000 years ago when Uranium was not discovered, did it exist?
"Absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence". Isn't that possible?
Universe without a God? The first and simple question that basic human logic tends to ask is, "Who created the Universe then?"
The next counter question is, "who created God?"
The answer is, God is the creator and not the creation, and that what makes him God. If God is an entity that was "created" then it does not qualify to be a God.
If I vaguely remember, once you asked a valid question, which was along the lines of "one has to define God" before defining what will constitute as an evidence of it's existence.
So here is the first characteristic of God. Uncreated.
As I stated previously, faith in the existence of God is formed by looking at the "signs of God" and not the evidence.
A faith is not a faith anymore if it's based on evidence.
Again, you demand "evidence" without even knowing what will constitute as an evidence? Do you want God to meet you in person and introduce himself by showing a miracle?
We discussed above that a characteristic of God is that God is uncreated. Tell me what evidence will you accept to validate this?
"Worship God or you will burn in Hell fire" <<~~ Perhaps this may be called "scare mongering and threats".
How conveniently you ignored the two facts below,
First, I said IF there is a God and heaven/Hell ... which means we are discussing a simple plane hypothetical scenario which could be true or false. That scares you?
Second, how conveniently you ignored the fact that I said " I hope it doesn't happen to anyone" - and it scared you, and you felt threatened? Seriously?
Other, preferred thoughts, because they come from man's mind, is that once there was nothing, although some say there never was nothing, from that nothing that wasn't nothing came everything, but not in logical or formatted sequence, it was just by chance. They feel comfortable about that scenario, but heaven forbid, do not suggest that the nothing they speak of may have been a something in the persona of a supreme spirit being that always was and always is to be.
For thousands of years mankind has been seeking answers to the hereafter and have come up with lots of suggestions that cannot all be the truth, so what is it that makes mankind seek a god to bring them to salvation from what most everyone considers a wicked sinful world.
Just like the many theories of the origin of life and of evolution, which has now be sectionalized to increase the mystery, the many theories of a god head are unproven, unable to be proven as no one has returned from the grave to let the rest of us know, and no one has been back to the primordial slime to get a look at life beginning.
Where does that leave us? Well in my mind it leaves us seeking the truth, there is and can be only one truth and it is there for everyone to make themselves familiar with.
If something is found to be absent, then it does not exist until it is no longer absent; however would you be able to convince anyone what wonderful stuff "Uranium" was before you found uranium.
That is the meaning of life...seeking the truth to all things, otherwise there is no meaning to life.
About all I got from this is that you say that evolution takes up to a 100 million attempts before it comes up with the goods.
Amazing the only thing you got from it was something I did not actually say. You might want to attempt reading it again and try a better response. In fact I did not mention evolution AT ALL.
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Originally Posted by Marakorpa
It is because some people have a finite mind that they cannot see the vast array of evidence of creation in action.
Ah that old canard. When you can not substantiate your position, simply denigrate the mental capacities of those that do not agree with you. I can well guess which City Data regular trained you in THAT little cop out.
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Originally Posted by Marakorpa
AS I said with the earth situation, all the system is in sync and you cannot take one away and it will continue to work, that is more than a 1 in a 100 million chance
So you contradict yourself in ONE sentence. Funny. It "cannot" continue to work but it has a 1/100million chance to work? Which is it, it can not be both?
Further where did you pluck the figure 1/100million from? Show your workings please, or did you just spew hyperbole because it sounded good on paper to you?
As I said though you are simply making the "puddle" error in everything you wrote here.
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