The world is the best address (paradise, prophecy, eternal, miracles)

[Clintone]

Originally Posted by Marakorpa

Every entry I looked at said "Similar Temperature", and accorded this as being habitable for human life, Some suggested that they would be habitable for "life". Others got really carried away.

The Bible does not say that life on earth is the only existing life, but then again it doesn't say that there is life on other planets in the vastness of the universe. The Bible was written for mankind on this earth, and that is all Christians should concentrate on for a uniformed, safe and reliable existence.

The Kelper study said it found 979 confirmed planets in the milky way or our galaxy ( I like that term "Our Milky way",but actually it is more mine than yours, so there lol) NASA is also one of the world organizations that needs government funding, which seems to stimulate sudden 'finds' and 'discoveries' around re-funding time.

You will see this happen a lot when there is an anthropological study team in some sub-tropical Island that have discovered new human forms that still exist. Strangely, after they are re-funded thre is a small article saying that they might have to re-think their previous 'discovery'.

Jehovah said that he knows the name of every "article" in the universe or universes, maybe we should ask Jehovah.

More planets have been found. They're at over 3,000 now since May with over 2,000 discovered by the Kepler telescope.

Of the nearly 5,000 total planet candidates found to date, more than 3,200 now have been verified, and 2,325 of these were discovered by Kepler. Launched in March 2009, Kepler is the first NASA mission to find potentially habitable Earth-size planets. For four years, Kepler monitored 150,000 stars in a single patch of sky, measuring the tiny, telltale dip in the brightness of a star that can be produced by a transiting planet. In 2018, NASA’s Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite will use the same method to monitor 200,000 bright nearby stars and search for planets, focusing on Earth and Super-Earth-sized.https://www.nasa.gov/press-release/n...ver-discovered

I don't think was it written for mankind on this Earth. I think that one of the most eloquent parts of it is the first part of Genesis, and to me that sounds an awful lot like an ancient person looking up at the sky, making the (at the time) rational conclusion that water is blue and the sky is blue and water comes from the sky so therefore presumably there was some kind of ocean up in the sky, which would be the water above the "vault".

In any case...with what was formerly thought to be over a hundred billion galaxies, that's a lot of possibilities for life to exist.

Here, I'll ask Jehovah: Hey Jehovah! you're omniscient, right? How many earth-like planets are there in the universe? I'll eagerly await your response.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Marakorpa

And they would happen "Just by Chance" etc. Yeah, Sure!!!!!!

You see...your ignorance with this 'Just by Chance' thing is leading you astray. Let me try to explain it to you by giving you something easy to digest that I filched from another member here that ssms to have disappeared...with credit to him.

You're leaving out the MAJOR function of how evolution works when you simply say "Do it enough times and you're good to go." Believe it or not, the statistical odds are just as bad as you think just by doing it over and over again.

"To be or not to be, that is the question."

Do you realize the odds alone of casting this particular set of scrabble tiles? Let's assume, just for arguments sake, that you already have the right number of tiles needed to spell out the quote you're referring to with all the letters jumbled up and mixed up. I count thirty letters in that phrase. So, the odds alone of just doing things over and over are as follows:

1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 * 1/30 = 1/4.85x10e45

So, when you leave out the things that selection does and leave it to "do it enough times and you're good to go," you too are committing the same sort of egregious fallacy.

HERE IS HOW IT ACTUALLY WORKS:

Essentially, you cast all your tiles out. With each letter having a corresponding tile, there is a 1/30 individual chance that a tile will fall in its proper place. Those tiles that DO fall in their proper place will be kept on the lawn. Those that do not, will be scooped back up and cast out again. So, let's assume the first throw looks like this:

"Ta kj od ald ie ne titu os ple uysqpoin"

Now, we leave the correctly corresponding tiles ON THE LAWN, And scoop up the incorrect ones. Using an odd symbol to show the difference between the correct and incorrect ones, this is what we should have currently residing on the lawn:

"T❈ ❈❈ o❈ ❈❈❈ ❈❈ ❈e t❈❈❈ ❈s ❈❈e ❈❈❈❈❈❈❈n"

In this case, this is currently the "fittest" creature for it's environment. It's by no means a perfect match. In fact, it looks more like a preliminary Wheel of Fortune answer than anything else. But you cast another set of tiles out and this is what you have:

"To jk ob utt iu be tiku is rhe qifsalnn."

Scoop the tiles back up but leave the ones that are in their correct place on the lawn. Here is what we now have:

"To ❈❈ o❈ ❈❈t ❈❈ be t❈❈❈ is ❈he q❈❈❈❈❈❈n."

Now, throw the tiles back out again. Let's say you come across this:

"To he on nut mo be tuit is nhe quetsion."

Scoop the tiles back up and leave the correct answers in place. This is what it will look like:

"To ❈e o❈ n❈t ❈o be t❈❈t is ❈he que❈❈ion."

As you'll see, we can keep doing this until we have the MOST SUITABLE string of characters for the environment. The previous entries, the ones that were not suitable, still existed, they were merely more primitive forms of the string of characters we asked for. In other words, you could look at the following sets as your FOSSIL RECORD. Here is the evolutionary lineage of the fossil record of this string of characters:

"T❈ ❈❈ o❈ ❈❈❈ ❈❈ ❈e t❈❈❈ ❈s ❈❈e ❈❈❈❈❈❈❈n"

"To ❈❈ o❈ ❈❈t ❈❈ be t❈❈❈ is ❈he q❈❈❈❈❈❈n."

"To ❈e o❈ n❈t ❈o be t❈❈t is ❈he que❈❈ion."

"To be or not to be that is the question."

Here, you can see how a very simplified sample of common evolutionary mathematics works. It is glaringly obvious that the "Missing Links" do not really have to be present to figure out what the phrase is. We know what we currently have and we know we had something grossly similar "two chains" ago. It doesn't take rocket science to put the rest together.

So, in actuality, it is the selection process that VASTLY reduces the astronomical likelihood of something happening. The faux pas that nearly every denialist makes is that evolution happens in one cast of the tiles. In fact, the very believability of such a thing is exactly what is called for in the "creation" model - that some being cast a very lucky set of dice.

Next time you hear this incredulous argument, please do not just say that "Give it enough times and it will happen." That is only half the argument, it is still misleading, and it is still inaccurate! We will never crush the mind virus that is anti-intellectualism and stupidity if we do not give proper explanations to our responses!
--CD Troop

.....and how about addressing post #29. I'm particularly interested to hear why you think that micro-evolution (which I'm assuming that you you buy) can't lead to macro-evolution and your explanation as to the general idea of DNA genome mapping and how it is used to track the genotypic background of a modern species and your explanation for three types of tRNA or DNA transcription errors in mitosis. After all...if you are going to sit there and tell us that evolution is all wrong and it just can't happen then it would be helpful for us to ascertain whether or not you actually know anything about the subject that you are dismissing as hogwash...don't you think?

[Nozzferrahhtoo]

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

But he realized as do other people, that if we suddenly took all evil out of the world, this world would be boring.

Speak for yourself. If you delight in evil that is your issue, but I see no reason to think such a world would be boring, let alone that I would find it boring.

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

Yes. Everything that exists is proof of a created universe.

Nope, not a shred of what anyone has shown exists supports the notion that this universe was created by an intelligent or intentional agency.

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

This is like 1st grade science. Why can't things be uncreated and still exist? Because it is in violation of a basic law of nature.

Would that you would go beyond mere 1st grade science and learn some more however. The problem with you discussing causality is that causality is temporal. It requires "time". The problem for the religious narrative however is that "time" is one of the attributes that came into being with the other dimensions after the "big bang".

So using causality to comment on the rise in that universe is a category error of no small degree. Discussing it in terms of cause and effect assumes temporal causality when no such model has been created.

But by all means if you have a temporal model of the universes creation, or a model of causality in the absence of a temporal element, do feel free to present it before you go to accept your nobel prize.

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

Uhhhh... possibly because you wouldn't probably not recognize God or a miracle if you saw it.

And there we have it, yet another re-hashing of your core "You are just blind" cop out narrative. Not accepting something to be a "miracle" just because you decree it to be one, is not a recognition fault on our part. It is an assertion failure on yours.

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

By boring I mean... human nature requires conflict. If there is none, we elect it. Don't believe me? Okay, I'll tell you a fairy tale.

What, as opposed to all the other fairy tales you have been peddling so far? You have shifted the goal posts however. You have moved from "evil" to "conflict". That is not he same thing. Nothing about conflict is inherently evil. Your EXACT words were "if we suddenly took all evil out of the world, this world would be boring.". Not "if we suddenly took all conflict out of the world, this world would be boring."

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

Don't believe in God, blame God when things go wrong. Whopper contradiction.

I repeat my request therefore, can you show WHO exactly is doing this? As I certainly have not encountered anyone who simultaneously does not believe there is a god, but blames that god for anything.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

I could show you miracles that happen all day, and you won't believe a thing.

Originally Posted by Rafius

Really! So let's have some, along with verifiable evidence to support them. I'm really not interested in the ...'I prayed to god to find my keys and glory be, there they were right before me' type 'miracles' or tales of some dude being cured of some deadly disease in Nigeria (unless you have the medical evidence to support it). Give me something like an amputee desperately praying to have his leg back and waking up in the morning with two legs (supported by evidence from peer reviewed medical journals).

Oh look...nothing!

[Rafius]

Day two...and still nothing.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by Rafius

So your way of answering questions is to ask questions in order to deflect? Before we go any further with this, let's see if you actually know what you are talking about.

1. Would you please explain to us the general idea of DNA genome mapping and how it is used to track the genotypic background of a modern species?
2. Explain three types of tRNA or DNA transcription errors in mitosis.

Are you going to answer Marakorpa...or perhaps you'll find it easier to simply admit that you are yet another evolution denier that doesn't even understand the bog-standard basics about the process he is saying is false and just can't happen.

[LuminousTruth]

Originally Posted by Marakorpa

About all I got from this is that you say that evolution takes up to a 100 million attempts before it comes up with the goods., and even then it is by chance. It is because some people have a finite mind that they cannot see the vast array of evidence of creation in action. AS I said with the earth situation, all the system is in sync and you cannot take one away and it will continue to work, that is more than a 1 in a 100 million chance, it is more than by chance as well. Even if by chance was finite it still couldn't happen as during the process of getting it together, and the errors of each try, the system would destroy itself.


Even Jupiter, the giant planet and its position in sync with the earth, is there any significance to where it ? Jupiter is in a line with the earth and takes thousands of big hits from meteors that would create great havoc on earth, is that just by chance?

? ...You seem desperate now in seeking to convince yourself. Jupiter also hurls meteors towards us sometimes, doesn't it? So are you saying that this "evidence" would mean that if a meteor ever came at us thanks to Jupiter being there that you would stop believing in Bramha the Creator? jk, of course you are likely Christian. Still, probably you wouldn't stop believing... because this stuff you are saying isn't really "neutral evidence" to you, you are seeking to make observations fit into the story you want to believe, that is called faith. Anyone can do that, even polytheists could say that Jupiter is there because Zeus is omnipotent. Then there isn't really evidence, there is just a ball of gas and thus I can interpret to mean that I am right about a benevolent creation monster who is fully plain spaghetti and fully divine being. The signs are everywhere, after all... if you truly open your eyes to them.

[TRANSPONDER]

There is some sloppy thinking there. Assuming that all the meteors that hit Jupiter would have hit earth. If the cretaceous extinction was a meteor (a pretty huge one) we owe our existence the fact that there was one that Jupiter did not stop (or as you say, Luminous One, could be one that Jupiter diverted our way).

We are here by chance, as distinct from intention. But 'chance' does not mean totally random. There are known processes that shape the results and evolution is shaped by the environment, as a puddle is shaped by the hole it fills. It is not 'designed' to fit it, nor does it just happen through an impossible -odds chance to be exactly the right shape to fit the hole. Yes - those seem foolish ideas, but they are just as foolish as the idea that we were designed and could not happen by 'Chance'.

Raff's excellent analogy of the selection process shows how the result is not 'Mount improbable' because the evolutionary grading process is no more random than the filtering of letters to suit the Shakespeare quote.

Of course, that analogy cannot be pushed too far, because it had to fit the idea of an existing phrase that had to be duplicated. In the book of evolution, there is no planned result that has to be reached. We really are here by lucky chance.

[Unsettomati]

Originally Posted by Unsettomati

No.

I just note the obvious - life exists where it is conducive to life existing. It's not some amazing coincidence that life exists on a planet in the 'Goldilocks zone' around a stable single star far enough away from the hostile core of the galaxy. It exists here because the moon and black holes and the surface of Jupiter and flare stars and clusters and comets and myriad other places are downright lousy, if not impossible, places for life to exist.

It's the same reason that fish live in water and not inside volcanoes and that tropical plants don't live at the north pole.

The world is certainly an interesting place. But there are many trillions of places in our galaxy alone. It's just mathematics.

Originally Posted by Marakorpa

The fact that all these things that make earth the perfect place for human habitation are all in sync with each other, all interacting in perfect harmony for the conditions to happen. And if one should not preform as it is now, the whole system would self destruct, does this not make you have a suspicion that there just maybe a superior intelligence making it work?

Or, are you going to tell me that is is all by chance?

Again, there are hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxy, there are countless trillions of planets and moons, and there are hundreds of billions of galaxies.

Do you understand mathematics?

That a place like Earth exists, which is conducive to life as we know it (which exists as we know it precisely because that is what life does - adapt to its environment) should not surprise anyone.

I'll say it again, since apparently you missed it the first time I wrote it. The galaxy teems with places where life would not arise. In deep space, or around brown dwarfs (no source of energy). Near the center of the galaxy, which teems with cosmic radiation and is so densely population that it is unlikely that long-term solar system stability could be achieved. Globular clusters are metal-poor and are generally too dense. We wouldn't expect to find life in those places. Even here on Earth, there seems to be no life in the molten nickel core of our planet, or in the stratosphere. Why? Because those places are hostile to life. But a very thin layer of Earth, a few miles on either side of the surface, is not hostile. And that is where life exists.

When it rains on a mountainside, untold numbers of raindrops rush down talus slopes and cliffs and ridges and collect themselves into pools - puddles, ponds, lakes, etc. Each of these bodies of water is perfectly flat on top (absent wind) and their bottoms are a perfect mirror image of the hole in which they reside. A miracle!, you might say. God must be individually designing those bodies of water!, you cry. Hardly. The natural forces of precipitation, gravity and pressure create them. You could prance around about how it's amazing that those puddles don't form in the sky, or a thousand miles underground. You could rant about 'chance', but the forming of those bodies of water is not a matter of chance. The falling of each raindrop is, just like each genetic mutation is essentially chance, but the puddles and ponds form because of very precisely pressures. So, too, are gene pools shaped by very specific - and understood, no matter how much you might insist that your personal incredulity renders this knowledge moot - forces and processes.

Are you amazed that hurricanes frequently hit Florida but never hit Minnesota? Hint - they don't form in Minnesota because they require large areas of warm ocean, and Minnesota is a bit short on those. Now you can stand astonished that Duluth never warrants a hurricane warning. If you like, you can even insist that your favorite deity is obviously keeping hurricanes out of the land of lakes. But the simple reality is that we don't expect hurricanes in Minnesota (or Botswana or the North Pole or Latvia or the Sea of Tranquility) because its essentially impossible for them to exist there. And it is for the exact same reason that we do not expect to find life on Mercury or on Pluto's moon Charon or in the photosphere of Alpha Centauri A or near the Galactic Center.

Life is here for the self-evident reason that 'here' is a good place for life to be. That doesn't guarantee that life would be here, but it darn sure doesn't make the fact that it is here - instead of some place that isn't a good place for life to be - even remotely mysterious.

Originally Posted by Marakorpa

Even Jupiter, the giant planet and its position in sync with the earth, is there any significance to where it ? Jupiter is in a line with the earth and takes thousands of big hits from meteors that would create great havoc on earth, is that just by chance?

Jupiter is not 'in line' with the Earth, beyond the fact that it orbits in the same plane (as do all the major planets, for the rather simple reason that they all were formed in the protoplanetary disc because that's where the matter was). Jupiter exists as it is because it, like the other gas giant Saturn (and the ice giants Uranus and Neptune) is beyond the frost line - where volatiles such as condensed into liquids or solids instead of remaining as vapors, where they would be lost into space, as happened on the inner planets. Jupiter takes 12 years to orbit the sun, and we obviously take but one year. So there's nothing 'in line' about Jupiter. It intercepts a great many comets simply because of its size - it produces a large gravity well. It may well be that gas giants are critical components of a life-bearing solar system. But observations indicate that gas giants are common, so that's no problem. And, again, no matter how incomprehensible to you this may be, if that is so then it is rather obvious that life is more likely to exist in systems with such gas giants than without.

[Rafius]

Christians always argue how the Earth must have been made specifically for Man. The atmosphere is just right for us, the temperature, the moon's effect on the tides, the distance of our planet from the sun, all seem calculated to make this the perfect place for our existence. Of course, this overlooks the obvious point that there are very few places on Earth that are habitable for humans. By far the vast majority of this planet is uninhabitable for us but is perfect for other life forms. The icy depths of the oceans have life. The extreme heights of mountain peaks have life....but man can't live there. When life began on this planet, the atmospheric conditions were much different than today and modern humans could not have survived (well, in the Bible literalist's world life began 6000 years ago when things were more or less as they are today, but of course nobody with a brain takes that idea seriously).

It also overlooks the fact that life is adaptable. As conditions change over the millennia, life changes to fit in (not the other way around). A world once dominated by large lizard-like animals, which fit well in their environment is now dominated by small, fur covered animals that fit well in the present. Man is particularly adaptive, as evidenced by his wide-spread presence on this planet.

The universe was not created for Man's benefit as these Christians want to believe. Man is an infinitesimal part of a universe that is ambivalent to his existence.