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Why don't you familiarize yourself with the teachings of Christ before you continue to reveal your ignorance for all to see.
Please point out where Jesus advocated these things you talk about. If you can't, you should admit that you are either wrong or a liar.
I chose to put this response separately, to avoid intangeling in the previous admittedly long response.
Since Jesus wrote NOTHING in his own hand, it becomes necessary to continuously point out that "the teachings of Christ" are actually nothing more than words placed into the mouth of Jesus by anonymous believers decades after Jesus was dead. So we don't ACTUALLY know what Jesus himself taught or believed, only what others INDICATED that Jesus taught and believed.
When anyone makes the claim that "Jesus said," a particular thing, they are making an unverifiable assumption based entirely on personal faith.
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 09-15-2018 at 10:41 AM..
Christianity started with Jesus Christ and 12 apostles. A rabbi and his 12 students.
Jesus was a Jew.
Judaism is said to stem ultimately from Zoroastrianism in Abyssinia or Babylonia or something, lol.
Jesus Christ tears the curtain that separates what was only available to Jews and makes entry to Heaven available to all. He tells Peter before his death that Peter is the rock upon which his church will be built. Peter begins the church and Catholicism (universal - all inclusive) is born.
The Romans adopt the religion and the Vatican becomes the base of this ancient world wide group with the supreme overseer being the Pontiff or Pope. The Pope in this ancient time is probably the most powerful man in Europe as even royalty bows to his will.
Paganism comes into the picture as the church grows and conversions start to take place. Nature festivals become Holy Days. German beer drinking songs become converted to hymns.
Martin Luther gets tired of taking money from the impoverished to give to the wealthy church officials, is labeled a heretic and killed. The Lutheran church is born.
Henry the Eighth of England wants a divorce. The Catholic church says no. The Church of England is born.
Protestants (literally) of the Catholic church who are still Christian (following the teachings of Christ) abound, and missionaries go out in search of more converts.
In America, the Church of England dissipates into follow-up groups like Baptists.
Joseph Smith has a dream. He digs up some ancient gold plates in New York state. Mormonism is born, which still holds Jesus Christ as the son of God, and branches out throughout the world. Note: Mormonism holds itself in line with Judaism. It is separate from other groups and considers all non-Mormons to be 'gentiles'.
And...new groups of Christians appear every day.
Ultimately, Christians should be studying the teachings of Christ and trying to emulate him.
After Christ, everything comes from man. No organized religion is any better than the people who organize it. Likewise, with any singular congregation.
My above street version does not take into account the Coptic and Orthodox spinoffs of Catholicism.
I chose to put this response separately, to avoid intangeling in the previous admittedly long response.
Since Jesus wrote NOTHING in his own hand, it becomes necessary to continuously point out that "the teachings of Christ" are actually nothing more than words placed into the mouth of Jesus by anonymous believers decades after Jesus was dead. So we don't ACTUALLY know what Jesus himself taught or believed, only what others INDICATED that Jesus taught and believed.
When anyone makes the claim that "Jesus said," a particular thing, they are making an unverifiable assumption based entirely on personal faith.
I don't care if I discovered the Gospel written on a a bathroom stall. That is irrelevant to me. The words are so powerful, that I cannot deny their righteousness.
It is righteous to care for those that cannot take care of themselves.
Why do you feel so outraged? You should hope that I do my best to fully abide by the words of Christ because if I did, I would only promote peace, harmony, and justice for all, unless you see things otherwise.
I chose to put this response separately, to avoid intangeling in the previous admittedly long response.
Since Jesus wrote NOTHING in his own hand, it becomes necessary to continuously point out that "the teachings of Christ" are actually nothing more than words placed into the mouth of Jesus by anonymous believers decades after Jesus was dead. So we don't ACTUALLY know what Jesus himself taught or believed, only what others INDICATED that Jesus taught and believed.
When anyone makes the claim that "Jesus said," a particular thing, they are making an unverifiable assumption based entirely on personal faith.
So, any history coming out of England prior to Beowulf is discounted because it is verbal and not written down?
So much of the history of the peoples of the Earth is discredited somehow because it is verbal and handed down from generation to generation?
Are we to assume anything written is substantiated fact, just because someone wrote it, lol?
I'm sure we can find loads of things written on bathroom stalls that hold no basis in fact. Will you really have a good time if you call that number??
Obviously, Jesus was a political force to be reckoned with. Here it is thousands of years later, and against all odds people still are talking about him and trying to discredit him.
Christianity started with Jesus Christ and 12 apostles. A rabbi and his 12 students.
Jesus was a Jew.
Judaism is said to stem ultimately from Zoroastrianism in Abyssinia or Babylonia or something, lol.
Jesus Christ tears the curtain that separates what was only available to Jews and makes entry to Heaven available to all. He tells Peter before his death that Peter is the rock upon which his church will be built. Peter begins the church and Catholicism (universal - all inclusive) is born.
The Romans adopt the religion and the Vatican becomes the base of this ancient world wide group with the supreme overseer being the Pontiff or Pope. The Pope in this ancient time is probably the most powerful man in Europe as even royalty bows to his will.
Paganism comes into the picture as the church grows and conversions start to take place. Nature festivals become Holy Days. German beer drinking songs become converted to hymns.
Martin Luther gets tired of taking money from the impoverished to give to the wealthy church officials, is labeled a heretic and killed. The Lutheran church is born.
Henry the Eighth of England wants a divorce. The Catholic church says no. The Church of England is born.
Protestants (literally) of the Catholic church who are still Christian (following the teachings of Christ) abound, and missionaries go out in search of more converts.
In America, the Church of England dissipates into follow-up groups like Baptists.
Joseph Smith has a dream. He digs up some ancient gold plates in New York state. Mormonism is born, which still holds Jesus Christ as the son of God, and branches out throughout the world. Note: Mormonism holds itself in line with Judaism. It is separate from other groups and considers all non-Mormons to be 'gentiles'.
And...new groups of Christians appear every day.
Ultimately, Christians should be studying the teachings of Christ and trying to emulate him.
After Christ, everything comes from man. No organized religion is any better than the people who organize it. Likewise, with any singular congregation.
My above street version does not take into account the Coptic and Orthodox spinoffs of Catholicism.
You have left out several centuries of religious evolution prior to the Birth of Jesus that shaped and moulded Christianity.
In 539 BCE Cyrus the Great of Persia defeated the Babylonians and took the city of Babylon, perminently eliminating the Babylonian empire. Cyrus the Great, the Persian king whom the Jewish population looked upon as their "shepherd" (Isaiah 44:28) and deliverer from the Babylonian exile, was a follower of the Zoroastrian god Ahura Mazda. Zoroastrian belief of that time was practically a template for what would later become some of the most common features of modern Christianity. And these beliefs were present in the beliefs of the followers of the Pharisees, but were denied by the rest of the Jewish population.
Acts 23:
[8] "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both."
Beliefs that represent the absolute foundation of Christian doctrine are not originally Jewish at all, but are directly comparable to Zoroastrian beliefs.
Encyclopedia Americana
"Although a definite borrowing is still impossible to prove, the resemblances between Zoroasterianism and Judaism are numerous and probably took shape during the exile. Moderator cut: Edited to comply with the Terms Of Service Copyrighted material provision. Christianity seems to owe many features to Iran over and above those inherited from Judaism. Among others are probably the belief in guardian angels, resurrection and the heavenly journey of the soul."(Encyclopedia Americana, "Zoroastrianism" pp.813-815).
Cyrus the Great gave the Jewish people permission to return to their homeland, but did not require them to go. Moderator cut: Edited to comply with the Terms Of Service Copyrighted material provision. They became known as the Pharisee or "Parsi," (pronounced farsee); the "Persian" Jews.
Greek translation: Pharisee = Farisaíos
NEW ADVENT
Chapter 23. Another Sect of the Esseni: the Pharisees.
There is then another order of the Essenes who use the same customs and prescribed method of living with the foregoing sects, but make an alteration from these in one respect, viz., marriage. Now they maintain that those who have abrogated matrimony commit some terrible offense, which is for the destruction of life, and that they ought not to cut off the succession of children; for, that if all entertained this opinion, the entire race of men would easily be exterminated.
Moderator cut: Edited to comply with the Terms Of Service Copyrighted material provision. These likewise acknowledge that there is a resurrection of flesh, and that soul is immortal, and that there will be a judgment and conflagration, and that the righteous will be imperishable, but that the wicked will endure everlasting punishment in unquenchable fire.
Chapter 24. The Sadducees.
These, then, are the opinions even of the Pharisees. The Sadducees, however, are for abolishing fate, and they acknowledge that God does nothing that is wicked, nor exercises providence over (earthly concerns); but they contend that the choice between good and evil lies within the power of men. Moderator cut: Edited to comply with the Terms Of Service Copyrighted material provision. They do not, however, devote attention to prophets, but neither do they to any other sages, except to the law of Moses only, in regard of which, however, they frame no interpretations. These, then, are the opinions which also the Sadducees choose to teach. CHURCH FATHERS: Refutation of All Heresies, Book IX (Hippolytus)
GotQuestions.org
Sadducees-Pharisees
Question: "Who were the Sadducees and the Pharisees?"
Answer: The Gospels refer often to the Sadducees and Pharisees, as Jesus was in constant conflict with them. The Sadducees and Pharisees comprised the ruling class of Israel. There are many similarities between the two groups but important differences between them as well.
The Sadducees: During the time of Christ and the New Testament era, the Sadducees were aristocrats. They tended to be wealthy and held powerful positions, including that of chief priests and high priest, and they held the majority of the 70 seats of the ruling council called the Sanhedrin. Moderator cut: Edited to comply with the Terms Of Service Copyrighted material provision. While they could be commended for this, they definitely were not perfect in their doctrinal views. The following is a brief list of beliefs they held that contradict Scripture:
1. They were extremely self-sufficient to the point of denying God's involvement in everyday life.
2. They denied any resurrection of the dead (Matthew 22:23; Mark 12:18-27; Acts 23:8).
3. They denied any afterlife, holding that the soul perished at death, and therefore denying any penalty or reward after the earthly life.
4. They denied the existence of a spiritual world, i.e., angels and demons (Acts 23:8).
Because the Sadducees were more concerned with politics than religion, they were unconcerned with Jesus until they became afraid He might bring unwanted Roman attention. It was at this point that the Sadducees and Pharisees united and conspired to put Christ to death (John 11:48-50; Mark 14:53; 15:1). Moderator cut: Edited to comply with the Terms Of Service Copyrighted material provision.
The Pharisees: In contrast to the Sadducees, the Pharisees were mostly middle-class businessmen, and therefore were in contact with the common man. The Pharisees were held in much higher esteem by the common man than the Sadducees. Moderator cut: Edited to comply with the Terms Of Service Copyrighted material provision.
Moderator cut: Edited to comply with the Terms Of Service Copyrighted material provision. However, they did remain true to God's Word in reference to certain other important doctrines. In contrast to the Sadducees, they believed the following:
1. They believed that God controlled all things, yet decisions made by individuals also contributed to the course of a person's life.
2. They believed in the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6).
3. They believed in an afterlife, with appropriate reward and punishment on an individual basis.
4. They believed in the existence of angels and demons (Acts 23:8).
Though the Pharisees were rivals of the Sadducees, they managed to set aside their differences on one occasion—the trial of Christ. It was at this point that the Sadducees and Pharisees united to put Christ to death (Mark 14:53; 15:1; John 11:48-50).
While the Sadducees ceased to exist after the destruction of Jerusalem, the Pharisees, who were more concerned with religion than politics, continued to exist.
Moderator cut: Edited to comply with the Terms Of Service Copyrighted material provision.
Both the Pharisees and the Sadducees earned numerous rebukes from Jesus. Perhaps the best lesson we can learn from the Pharisees and Sadducees is to not be like them. Unlike the Sadducees, we are to believe everything the Bible says, including the miraculous and the afterlife. Unlike the Pharisees, we are not to treat traditions as having equal authority as Scripture, and we are not to allow our relationship with God to be reduced to a legalistic list of rules and rituals.
The NT Jesus was an attempt by individuals with Pharisaic beliefs to establish that Jesus represented the fulfillment of Persian prophecy.
I don't actually expect anyone to accept details that are at odds with the indoctrination of their childhood upbringing of course. But at least I hope that it is obvious from the documentation that I have provided, that I am not simply making this stuff up off of the top of my head.
Last edited by mensaguy; 09-16-2018 at 08:24 AM..
Reason: Please stop copying large texts into posts.
So, any history coming out of England prior to Beowulf is discounted because it is verbal and not written down?
So much of the history of the peoples of the Earth is discredited somehow because it is verbal and handed down from generation to generation?
Are we to assume anything written is substantiated fact, just because someone wrote it, lol?
I'm sure we can find loads of things written on bathroom stalls that hold no basis in fact. Will you really have a good time if you call that number??
Obviously, Jesus was a political force to be reckoned with. Here it is thousands of years later, and against all odds people still are talking about him and trying to discredit him.
How would you feel if someone who never met you were making what they claimed were direct quotes of things you said decades after you had died?
I don't care if I discovered the Gospel written on a a bathroom stall. That is irrelevant to me. The words are so powerful, that I cannot deny their righteousness.
It is righteous to care for those that cannot take care of themselves.
Why do you feel so outraged? You should hope that I do my best to fully abide by the words of Christ because if I did, I would only promote peace, harmony, and justice for all, unless you see things otherwise.
What harm would Christ do to you?
From what do you derive the opinion that I am "outraged?" I do admit to being dismayed that so many people in the 21st century still subscribe to ancient superstition and make believe. But I am not "outraged."
Jesus is a legend. The historical Yeshua, assuming that he actually existed, has long since been lost to history, buried under the considerable legend of Jesus.
How would you feel if someone who never met you were making what they claimed were direct quotes of things you said decades after you had died?
If Im an atheist, I wouldn't feel anything, lol.
But in all seriousness, Jesus was a political hot topic of his day. People faced death for publicly proclaiming they were Christian - when Jesus was still alive and after his death. Its no wonder that no written material appears closer to the date of his existence and demise. It could have cost an author his life.
Further, you have all the groups that decided what writings the general public would be made aware of, and which would be kept hidden from public view. The Council of Nicaea is one such example.
The writings turn up - like that of Thomas. Hidden from view for over a thousand years and then suddenly someone is studying it and making the world aware it exists.
Reality is Christianity is infinitely more popular than many spiritual belief systems, including Atheism.
I could have easily become an atheist in my youth, but I have had too many experiences that have lead me to the realm of believing to ever consider that path now.
But in all seriousness, Jesus was a political hot topic of his day. People faced death for publicly proclaiming they were Christian - when Jesus was still alive and after his death. Its no wonder that no written material appears closer to the date of his existence and demise. It could have cost an author his life.
Further, you have all the groups that decided what writings the general public would be made aware of, and which would be kept hidden from public view. The Council of Nicaea is one such example.
The writings turn up - like that of Thomas. Hidden from view for over a thousand years and then suddenly someone is studying it and making the world aware it exists.
Reality is Christianity is infinitely more popular than many spiritual belief systems, including Atheism.
I could have easily become an atheist in my youth, but I have had too many experiences that have lead me to the realm of believing to ever consider that path now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser
If Im an atheist, I wouldn't feel anything, lol.
What gives you the idea that atheists do not "feel anything." Atheists are not a separate species of humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser
But in all seriousness, Jesus was a political hot topic of his day. People faced death for publicly proclaiming they were Christian - when Jesus was still alive and after his death. Its no wonder that no written material appears closer to the date of his existence and demise. It could have cost an author his life.
Jesus was "a political hot topic of his day," only in the NT. Jesus made no historical waves during the Time Jesus was supposed to have been alive. "In his day," Jesus went entirely unmentioned. The first indication that Jesus even existed does not occur until about a quarter of a century after the time the Gospels indicate that Jesus was executed. Paul begins writing his various letters in the50's, in which he, Paul, speaks of Jesus. But Paul never met Jesus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser
Further, you have all the groups that decided what writings the general public would be made aware of, and which would be kept hidden from public view. The Council of Nicaea is one such example.
Groups "that decided what writings the general public would be made aware of," have a name. That name is the Catholic church. The Catholic church is still attempting to keep things hidden from public view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser
The writings turn up - like that of Thomas. Hidden from view for over a thousand years and then suddenly someone is studying it and making the world aware it exists.
Here are a few of the quotes taken from the Gospel of Thomas.
***
Jesus said, "The person old in days won't hesitate to ask a little child seven days old about the place of life, and that person will live."
***
Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."
***
Jesus said, "You see the sliver in your friend's eye, but you don't see the timber in your own eye. When you take the timber out of your own eye, then you will see well enough to remove the sliver from your friend's eye."
***
Jesus said, "If a blind person leads a blind person, both of them will fall into a hole."
***
Jesus said, "There are many standing at the door, but those who are alone will enter the bridal suite."
***
Jesus said, "Whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple, and whoever does not hate brothers and sisters, and carry the cross as I do, will not be worthy of me."
***
Jesus said, "Whoever knows the father and the mother will be called the child of a *****." (rhymes with door)
***
Jesus said, "One can't enter a strong person's house and take it by force without tying his hands. Then one can loot his house."
Jesus is often said to speak in parables. A parable is a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse that illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles. And then of course, there is gibberish.
Gibberish, alternatively jibberish, jibber-jabber, or gobbledygook, is language that is (or appears to be) nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeCloser
Reality is Christianity is infinitely more popular than many spiritual belief systems, including Atheism.
Reality is, that Christianity is rapidly eroding away in western society.
Pew Research Center
America’s Changing Religious Landscape
The Christian share of the U.S. population is declining, while the number of U.S. adults who do not identify with any organized religion is growing, according to an extensive new survey by the Pew Research Center.
Much of Europe is already at 50% secular or better already.
Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on one's point of view), the religious are no longer able to boil non believers in oil, or burn them at the stake. As a result non believers are actually able to stand up and challenge the claims and beliefs of believers. As it turns out, the claims and beliefs of believers do not hold up at all well to open scrutiny.
Christianity started with Jesus Christ and 12 apostles. A rabbi and his 12 students.
Jesus was a Jew.
Judaism is said to stem ultimately from Zoroastrianism in Abyssinia or Babylonia or something, lol.
Jesus Christ tears the curtain that separates what was only available to Jews and makes entry to Heaven available to all. He tells Peter before his death that Peter is the rock upon which his church will be built. Peter begins the church and Catholicism (universal - all inclusive) is born.
The Romans adopt the religion and the Vatican becomes the base of this ancient world wide group with the supreme overseer being the Pontiff or Pope. The Pope in this ancient time is probably the most powerful man in Europe as even royalty bows to his will.
Paganism comes into the picture as the church grows and conversions start to take place. Nature festivals become Holy Days. German beer drinking songs become converted to hymns.
Martin Luther gets tired of taking money from the impoverished to give to the wealthy church officials, is labeled a heretic and killed. The Lutheran church is born.
Henry the Eighth of England wants a divorce. The Catholic church says no. The Church of England is born.
Protestants (literally) of the Catholic church who are still Christian (following the teachings of Christ) abound, and missionaries go out in search of more converts.
In America, the Church of England dissipates into follow-up groups like Baptists.
Joseph Smith has a dream. He digs up some ancient gold plates in New York state. Mormonism is born, which still holds Jesus Christ as the son of God, and branches out throughout the world. Note: Mormonism holds itself in line with Judaism. It is separate from other groups and considers all non-Mormons to be 'gentiles'.
And...new groups of Christians appear every day.
Ultimately, Christians should be studying the teachings of Christ and trying to emulate him.
After Christ, everything comes from man. No organized religion is any better than the people who organize it. Likewise, with any singular congregation.
My above street version does not take into account the Coptic and Orthodox spinoffs of Catholicism.
I would certainly agree that Jesus and his disciples plus Paul who is highly significant here, are the main areas of interest. What came after is just the ideas of men.
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