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In the absence of any evidence, it is a fair conclusion (or at least a fair starting point) that things like angels, souls, divine beings, everlasting life, reincarnation, prayer, etc.... are inventions of religion (or, to maintain the parallel, "the humans who do religion"). There is no doubt or debate that holy books exist, but also no doubt where they came from, so that's even more of a circular argument.
It is very common for people to see and communicate with non-physical beings. People talk about it less in modern times, for fear of being diagnosed with mental illness. But it is still extremely common, and always has been.
I don't think the bible's authors made up all the stuff about prophets having visions. People had visions. They still have visions.
Atheists confidently state that all supernatural visions and experiences are hallucinations. That's just their opinion.
I don't understand why or how the physical brain would generate all these elaborate hallucinations, and atheists don't know either.
We don't have an objective way to decide between that atheists and those who perceive the non-physical. But you can't say there is no evidence. There are tons of evidence -- it just is not observable by those who don't experience it.
Then there is parapsychology -- but atheists simply don't buy it no matter how strong the evidence, so I don't want to get into that. Forget I mentioned it.
it is precisely because a person or group denies something exists which makes that person or group inadequate to address the areas listed. That was the point being made, that there are areas that religion is better equipped to address than science.
I can't agree. One could argue that those doubters (let's call them "skeptics") are the very people you MOST want assessing claims (of ANY sort), because they are less likely to let their biases shape their conclusions, and we can be more confident in the end result.
Some of the strongest science emerges from scenarios where there are multiple teams going at the same problem with competing ideas and approaches, and every conclusion is challenged and independently verified. In other words, people who don't believe or accept what you do. Indeed, that skepticism is an integral part of the scientific process.
If assessment of religious claims is restricted to those who already believe/accept those claims... it doesn't say much about religion being "better equipped to address." It just raises questions like "what are you afraid of.... what have you got to hide.... what is the value in that?"
Last edited by HeelaMonster; 10-30-2018 at 12:19 PM..
Technology is definitely to blame for most violence between humans, and it's strange how atheists don't see this
Because there is nothing to see - and you asserting it from nowhere does not make it magically true. Technology is not to blame for most violence - rather technology is what many people turn to to facilitate the violence that they have already decided to enact.
But by all means evidence your claim rather than merely assert it. What is the evidence that technology causes not just violence but "most"? Do you have any?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
I think those are good examples, areas where science has nothing to offer. When people worship science, they give up so much.
But which areas are those? As I said to another user on the thread - I have constantly been told the areas where science could not go. Where it could add nothing and explain nothing. Morality. Art. Love. Yet they are exactly the kind of areas it is now going. We are developing - for example - a science related to art and artistic appreciation.
The only areas where science has "nothing to offer" from the examples therefore - are the areas where these religions have simply made stuff up. Like "relationships with the divine".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
without saying nothing can possibly be true unless science has already discovered it.
Who is saying that exactly? I know I never have for example. Could you quote a few examples of people saying it for me?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
It is very common for people to see and communicate with non-physical beings. People talk about it less in modern times, for fear of being diagnosed with mental illness. But it is still extremely common, and always has been.
It is very common for people to _think_ they are seeing and communicating with "non-physical beings" for sure. The evidence that they actually _have_ been communicating with any such thing - or that there is even any such thing _to_ communicate with - is currently between zero and none. Especially in your posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
I don't think the bible's authors made up all the stuff about prophets having visions. People had visions. They still have visions.
Sure they do! I have even had several myself. I do not think anyone on this thread is denying the existence of visions. Rather they are questioning the conclusions people come to off the back of them - or the mere assertions about what those visions are and mean.
Visions - no problem with them at all! Many people have them - many people will continue to have them. What is your point exactly? Or is there not even meant to be one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
Atheists confidently state that all supernatural visions and experiences are hallucinations. That's just their opinion.
Again could you quote them saying that in numbers? Or are you again making it up rather than asking them? I would say I have not met a single atheist confidently stating what they are. Rather all the atheists I have met confidently state there is no evidence on offer at this time to think they are anything but "hallucinations".
There is a _vast_ difference between saying "X is definitely Y" and "Currently there is no evidence to think X is anything but Y".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
I don't understand why or how the physical brain would generate all these elaborate hallucinations, and atheists don't know either.
Speak for yourself. We have quite a lot of data on what causes hallucinations and visions and so forth. We can even pretty much generate them at will using specific drugs - or by perturbing the body in specific ways such as centrifugal acceleration chairs. Our knowledge is far from _complete_ on how the brain does these things for sure - but to claim that we have no understanding of it at all is a statement of purely scientific ignorance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
Then there is parapsychology -- but atheists simply don't buy it no matter how strong the evidence, so I don't want to get into that. Forget I mentioned it.
Nope. If you want something not mentioned then do not mention it. If you want to back pedal or retract a claim - by all means do. But until that point - the claim is there. So - What claims are you talking about here - and what are the "strong" evidence for them you claim exists?
it is precisely because a person or group denies something exists which makes that person or group inadequate to address the areas listed.
Well that is rubbish for a start. For example the entire methodology of science is based around the concept of falsification. Our justice system is based around the idea of innocent until proven guilty. That means in _both_ situations it is precisely the people denying a truth that are the best people to evaluate that truth.
The entire approach of science is to deny things are true or real and to try to falsify and disprove them. We in science do not prove anything true or right - so much as we entirely fail to prove them false.
However when it comes to souls and gods and spirits and so forth who exactly is the group that "denies something exists" in your mind? It seems to me that atheist after atheist on this forum has lined up over the years to tell you that they do not deny any god exists - but that they see no reason to think one does. They do not believe in no god - they simply lack believe in yes god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
That was the point being made, that there are areas that religion is better equipped to address than science.
Which was rebutted by a few users including myself. I am not sure ignoring those points and then repeating the same claim again makes it any more true - and less false - than in was already.
However to repeat what you ignored - there seems to be two classes of thing in the examples you yourself listed. The first are things that were invented by those religions - so they are inventing something that does not appear to exist and then presuming to be the best thing to address them. The second however are things that are real but you asserted religion is the best thing to address them - but I see no reason to think it is any many reasons to think it is not.
So your claim remains as seemingly false upon repetition as it did when you first asserted it.
I think those are good examples, areas where science has nothing to offer. When people worship science, they give up so much.
Why not just appreciate science for the kind of understanding it does provide, without saying nothing can possibly be true unless science has already discovered it.
There's a difference between relying on science and worshipping it.
But of course, you don't rely on science in your life at all.
It was assumed that science would easily come up with answers to the biggest questions. What is everything ultimately made out of? How does the brain work? How does DNA generate an organism? How are diseases related to genes?
As I said, it was an old way of thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
As science advances, it runs up against the fact that reductionist analysis cannot explain complex natural systems.
Cannot? And so the question begging assertions begin.
Hint, we have learnt so much. And it still was not a god did it.
The bold part:
Wrong again. And it's over and over.
It's NOT the religion. It's the human nature.
Think about what you wrote above in blue, and compare it with what you stated afterwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
From an Atheists point of view: There probably was no religion when man first invented spears - yet there were wars and fights that trigger the inventions for hurting and killing others quickly and effectively.
From any ones point of view that is debatable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals
It's actually the human condition that we are fighting with and we blame religion.
In my opinion, there would still be many, many, many major wars among humans if there was no religion at all.
It is very common for people to see and communicate with non-physical beings. People talk about it less in modern times, for fear of being diagnosed with mental illness. But it is still extremely common, and always has been.
I don't think the bible's authors made up all the stuff about prophets having visions. People had visions. They still have visions.
Atheists confidently state that all supernatural visions and experiences are hallucinations. That's just their opinion.
I don't understand why or how the physical brain would generate all these elaborate hallucinations, and atheists don't know either.
We don't have an objective way to decide between that atheists and those who perceive the non-physical. But you can't say there is no evidence. There are tons of evidence -- it just is not observable by those who don't experience it.
Then there is parapsychology -- but atheists simply don't buy it no matter how strong the evidence, so I don't want to get into that. Forget I mentioned it.
And then there is psychology, which as answered many of the things you are clearly ignorant of. The evidence you label as opinion is not on your side, even if some visions were to be true.
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