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Well, for one, it is generally believed that God works through us since He has given us Dominion on the earth.
As you say, Mystic this is a general belief among Christians and unsubstantiated "general beliefs" among Christians are a dime a thousand. Here's what you can take to the bank:
1. prayers can be shown to have a possible positive outcome when we're testing mickey-mouse things like a headache, a muscle ache, an ingrown toenail, etc. Sure, "I prayed and my headache went away." No big surprise.
2. But get into heavy duty-stuff like cancer, heart attacks, emphysema, diabetic hypertrophy, renal failure and things like that and the game changes dramatically. Statistically about 5% of people being prayed for get some sort of positive outcome in a few of these. The rest don't and die or are on their way to dying. Then look at a control group of Christians and atheists who don't have any prayers offered for them and we see them same percentages. About 5% experience a spontaneous regression or remission of their disease in things like cancer. Markedly, in things that are degenerative like renal failure and emphysema there is no improvement at all. Once these degenerative disease are at an advanced-enough stage then no group shows any positive outcomes either through prayer or spontaneous regression/remission. This is exactly what we would expect when we look at the etiology of the diseases. Emphysema, for example is irreversible once the damage is done. That's a medical fact. No amount of prayer is going to reverse these particular conditions.
Nothing fails like prayer!
Last edited by thrillobyte; 04-18-2019 at 03:57 PM..
I think one should avail oneself of all earthly possibilities, before turning to higher powers for assistance. If the treatment is helping, why would one quit it...or maybe I misread and the treatment was not effective.
Interesting, but how do you account for the group only achieving 60-70 of % success? You can't use the 'lack of faith' argument in the case of the same group. You can only use the 'God had some reason to say 'no' argument. So, accepting the results (and don't forget that in other tests the results have been otherwise), we have a prayer -positive result. So if prayer works, why and how? It is a leap too far to claim that it proves that a god answers prayers. Just that prayer appears, to have a better success ratio in this study.
Good question! That’s what each of us must determine.
And why couldn’t one use “lack of faith” as an argument? Just because a “prayer group” is successful one day doesn’t necessarily translate into success every day. A super good baseball player might hit a home run in ten straight games but that doesn’t mean it will happen in game eleven.
Why and how are much more interesting. And, please note, it may be a leap too far for YOU that God answers prayer, but not for everyone. You are keeping your assessment from leaving the framework of your mindset that there is no God.
For me, I honestly don’t know. My theist ideas are supported by efficacy of prayer by non-believers (study provided by a link in the closed “Nones” thread). I think God cares less about one’s beliefs and more about one’s desire to seek Him out. But that goes against the grain god-specific theists (it’s MY god, not yours, or hit the road Jack) who think God only answers prayers of “true” believers.
I think God would as soon speak to you as any of us “believing” heathens. We’re all in the same boat and with my particular God it’s all about whether you are rowing or bailing for everybody versus pulling up planks under the seats of some to sink them (because of race, religion, lack thereof, or sexual orientation).
But can I be certain of why prayer appears to work? No, I can’t. I don’t think you can be certain either!
But maybe this Scripture verse gives us a path to follow with prayer, God believer or not:
Quote:
Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.”
Philippians 4:8
Last edited by Wardendresden; 04-19-2019 at 01:05 AM..
If god is going to want to do what he wants to do anyway...no need for prayers.
Exactly. If Yahweh is going to give you cancer, why pray for a cure. It's going against the will of Yahweh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn
Hi thrill, I have not read anything but this first post...but, I'm not understanding...didn't God, if you believe in such things...create the medicine by putting the idea into someone's head and then put into your head to go get it?
If God is always righteous then He could never answer a prayer that would allow someone to sin or hurt themselves. He wouldn't help someone rob a bank, for example. On the flip side, the Bible would have to be millions of pages long to include every possible exception.
Also, one of the biggest barriers to prayer is disbelief. God is not going to answer your prayer if you don't have faith that He will do it.
Ok, that's fair comment. However, when a born again, very dedicated believer, prays for her son who is in mental anguish and that prayer doesn't get answered. This story goes along the lines of Phet's story. Had my son's mother chosen to not pray and rely on faith, she would have phoned me and told me what was going on and asked for help. I would have been able to prevent his suicide. My son would still be alive today and with the help he needed to heal.
Good question! That’s what each of us must determine.
And why couldn’t one use “lack of faith” as an argument? Just because a “prayer group” is successful one day doesn’t necessarily translate into success every day. A super good baseball player might hit a home run in ten straight games but that doesn’t mean it will happen in game eleven.
Why and how are much more interesting. And, please note, it may be a leap too far for YOU that God answers prayer, but not for everyone. You are keeping your assessment from leaving the framework of your mindset that there is no God.
For me, I honestly don’t know. My theist ideas are supported by efficacy of prayer by non-believers (study provided by a link in the closed “Nones” thread). I think God cares less about one’s beliefs and more about one’s desire to seek Him out. But that goes against the grain god-specific theists (it’s MY god, not yours, or hit the road Jack) who think God only answers prayers of “true” believers.
I think God would as soon speak to you as any of us “believing” heathens. We’re all in the same boat and with my particular God it’s all about whether you are rowing or bailing for everybody versus pulling up planks under the seats of some to sink them (because of race, religion, lack thereof, or sexual orientation).
But can I be certain of why prayer appears to work? No, I can’t. I don’t think you can be certain either!
But maybe this Scripture verse gives us a path to follow with prayer, God believer or not:
Philippians 4:8
Set aside the idea that the act of prayer itself accomplishes something without the intervention of a god. That's a whole different problem.
Once you put the effect down to an intervening god (I'm saving Christian Jesusgod till later) it is not up to the prayer -group or individual, but up to the god. It can be granted or not. this god isn't somehow prevented from answering a prayer by the mood the praying person or group is in, or whether they're having doubts at the time. I can understand a god not granting world peace because the display -prayers of politicians ore ones I wouldn't grant, either, but individuals praying for auntie's Problem to go away is sincere enough or they wouldn't be doing it. An not anwering prayers by those with Doubts is a sure way to add to the Nones.
As to Biblegod/Jesus. The guarantee is there, and if it's absurd, that just makes the Bible absurd. Not the objections. Luke even sidelines the 'not enough Faith' excuse because faith as small as a mustard -seed will do it. But then, elsewhere a whole bunch of disciples aren't able to throw a demon out because they hadn't enough Faith, even though Mark has Jesus say it was the wrong method. In fact this is Bible contradiction, and makes the whole Book rubbish, but I doubt I need labour the point with you.
The prayer -effect may have some data behind it, but, even if it is a real effect it doesn't necessarily show that a god is doing it, and it doesn't at all vaidate Christianity or any other religion.
Set aside the idea that the act of prayer itself accomplishes something without the intervention of a god. That's a whole different problem.
Once you put the effect down to an intervening god (I'm saving Christian Jesusgod till later) it is not up to the prayer -group or individual, but up to the god. It can be granted or not. this god isn't somehow prevented from answering a prayer by the mood the praying person or group is in, or whether they're having doubts at the time. I can understand a god not granting world peace because the display -prayers of politicians ore ones I wouldn't grant, either, but individuals praying for auntie's Problem to go away is sincere enough or they wouldn't be doing it. An not anwering prayers by those with Doubts is a sure way to add to the Nones.
As to Biblegod/Jesus. The guarantee is there, and if it's absurd, that just makes the Bible absurd. Not the objections. Luke even sidelines the 'not enough Faith' excuse because faith as small as a mustard -seed will do it. But then, elsewhere a whole bunch of disciples aren't able to throw a demon out because they hadn't enough Faith, even though Mark has Jesus say it was the wrong method. In fact this is Bible contradiction, and makes the whole Book rubbish, but I doubt I need labour the point with you.
The prayer -effect may have some data behind it, but, even if it is a real effect it doesn't necessarily show that a god is doing it, and it doesn't at all vaidate Christianity or any other religion.
yeah, it took how long of repeating it for you to finally say it? How long it took my one trick pony to walk in front of you before you saw it?
you can't dismiss all "praying" as willful ignorance and doesn't work. It just doesn't match what we see. We can say that magic prayer doesn't work and that prayer is not proof of god. yes, so long as we define god, like biblegod, then "jesus answering your prayers" becomes nonsensical.
so, praying doesn't fail. types of prayer fail. exercising doesn't fail, carpentry doesn't fail, science doesn't fall. Parts of those endeavor are wrong and dangerous.
It doesn't mean we through everything out the window.
As you say, Mystic this is a general belief among Christians and unsubstantiated "general beliefs" among Christians are a dime a thousand. Here's what you can take to the bank:
1. prayers can be shown to have a possible positive outcome when we're testing mickey-mouse things like a headache, a muscle ache, an ingrown toenail, etc. Sure, "I prayed and my headache went away." No big surprise.
2. But get into heavy duty-stuff like cancer, heart attacks, emphysema, diabetic hypertrophy, renal failure and things like that and the game changes dramatically. Statistically about 5% of people being prayed for get some sort of positive outcome in a few of these. The rest don't and die or are on their way to dying. Then look at a control group of Christians and atheists who don't have any prayers offered for them and we see them same percentages. About 5% experience a spontaneous regression or remission of their disease in things like cancer. Markedly, in things that are degenerative like renal failure and emphysema there is no improvement at all. Once these degenerative disease are at an advanced-enough stage then no group shows any positive outcomes either through prayer or spontaneous regression/remission. This is exactly what we would expect when we look at the etiology of the diseases. Emphysema, for example is irreversible once the damage is done. That's a medical fact. No amount of prayer is going to reverse these particular conditions.
Nothing fails like prayer!
no, nothing fails like some types of prayer.
using "nothing fails like prayer" is not the base base claim. All lines of logic based off of "nothing fails like prayer" leads to less valid conclusions. well, less valid than "some types of prayer fail."
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No big surprise.
