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Well, looks like the thread has finally arrived........................................ this thing has been off topic since about page 10 but we finally got there................All about Jeff now.
I admit to not reading this whole thread, but I will say that many people I know would identify as Catholic for a survey instead of None even if they no longer attend services (or rarely).
It is more of a cultural identification to some with the organized religious aspect waning. I remember when the churches were standing room only for Masses and that has definitely changed, particularly in the last two decades.
It does not mean they are now atheists but instead have slacked off on church attendance for various reasons.
Very true. When I was a kid. St. Ann's in my hometown had a Saturday morning and a Saturday afternoon mass; Sunday masses at 8, 9:15, 11, and 12:15, and weekday masses each morning at 7. Now they have one mass a week. That's 11 masses a week down to 1. Other than the one Sunday mass, catholics have to go to the next town over, despite the fact that the township's population has grown slightly.
I admit to not reading this whole thread, but I will say that many people I know would identify as Catholic for a survey instead of None even if they no longer attend services (or rarely).
It is more of a cultural identification to some with the organized religious aspect waning. I remember when the churches were standing room only for Masses and that has definitely changed, particularly in the last two decades.
It does not mean they are now atheists but instead have slacked off on church attendance for various reasons.
That happens. Sometimes people get tired of the ritual or see it as man -made trappings. They may change to another church or just become non -religious God -believers. I wouldn't doubt that a good half of the 'Nones' are actually irreligious God -believers. I have to keep that in mind as some survey could soon point out that 10% of the Nones are atheists and the rest are theists who don't identify with a particular religion. It could be. But that's ok. We atheists can do business with irreligious theists.
Because, contrary to what many theists (and a good few atheists )seem to believe. we are not actively against Theism, but 'activist' against the unholy influence of organised (we would say 'man -made') religion in society.
Get shot of that and we are fine with what anybody want to believe.
You laughed at her comment. That is giving approval to her mocking. Giving approval is basically high fiving. That's how it comes across to me. I would appreciate a discussion without ANY mockery or running down a person's character. The OP is not about me.
I laughed because of the truth contained in the mockery, and then I went on to explain from experience that the assumption of persecution is a deeply ingrained feature in some Christian worldviews.
But you are right that the conversation has veered the wrong way, so...
That happens. Sometimes people get tired of the ritual or see it as man -made trappings. They may change to another church or just become non -religious God -believers. I wouldn't doubt that a good half of the 'Nones' are actually irreligious God -believers. I have to keep that in mind as some survey could soon point out that 10% of the Nones are atheists and the rest are theists who don't identify with a particular religion. It could be. But that's ok. We atheists can do business with irreligious theists.
Because, contrary to what many theists (and a good few atheists )seem to believe. we are not actively against Theism, but 'activist' against the unholy influence of organised (we would say 'man -made') religion in society.
Get shot of that and we are fine with what anybody want to believe.
believers in 'something" will always out number your sect of atheism.
The fact that you have to deceive them due to your emotional connection to the central dogma of
"some of us feel religion is dangerous we must deny everything so theist can't use it and make atheism harder to sell." proves me right.
I have been using your posts to teach people the difference between the types of atheism. they get it.
believers in 'something" will always out number your sect of atheism.
The fact that you have to deceive them due to your emotional connection to the central dogma of
"some of us feel religion is dangerous we must deny everything so theist can't use it and make atheism harder to sell." proves me right.
I have been using your posts to teach people the difference between the types of atheism. they get it.
There are not "different types of atheism".
An atheist doesn't believe in a god or gods. That's it, no more and no less. Thankfully, those beliefs are dissipating, and it all starts with people not being exposed to magical thinking weekly at their local place of worship.
People aren't always truthful, even those we love, yet I'm certain you give weight to their words and measure them against your own scale of "reality." The Bible is not a message from the Divine whispered into someone's ear, it is a testimony of men about their understanding of the nature of God. Some of it hits a chord, and some of it is discordant. This illustrates the importance of not discarding intelligence or discernment (as jeff does) when approaching a book written by men who wanted to talk about God.
I won't deny that the Bible played a role in a knowledge about Jesus. But it played a ROLE, it was not the primary reason for my salvation. No one sat down and started reading a Bible to me while saying believe this or believe that.
Now that is the $64,000 question, and the thing that is hardest for non-believers to grasp. I could say "a small voice," and it was. I could say "it was a eureka moment in my mine," and it was. I could say "a light flashed before my eyes," and it did. But what was it? I don't know yet.
Let me give another far-out analogy for "fact" lovers. My father was in the AF from WWII through the mid-sixties. He flew on bombers for awhile as the radio communications operator. During the early fifties he took a flight from what I believe was Hunter AFB in Savannah, Georgia to Texas. On the flight someone reported an object flying on the six of their aircraft. The pilot began slowly banking and my Dad jumped up from his position to look out the window and see a saucer-shaped object, as big as their own plane, following them. He jumped on radio to tell the pilot and the pilot responded by banking more sharply to turn back toward the object. Dad jumped up to look out and he said he saw the object suddenly accelerate rapidly and swerve into a cloud bank.
The pilot reported what had been seen by several of the crew and was told to maintain radio silence. When they got to Texas the whole crew was confined overnight separate from one another, and each was questioned thoroughly.
When my father told me that story, I laughed and got a slap across the cheek for it. He truly believed there were flying saucers. BUT IT WASN'T MY EXPERIENCE and so I couldn't relate. Maybe it was "true" and maybe it wasn't, but it was most certainly his reality.
So it is with my meeting of Jesus. And I continue to experience Him in the most unlikely times and places. If I describe some of them you would reach a conclusion that I am hallucinating. If it weren't my experience I probably would agree.
I can't "show" you Jesus in a fashion you would find acceptable. It is up to YOU to "seek" in order to find. A desire for spiritual awareness and an earnestness in seeking it is necessary. I assure you this, when it happens you will know and know down to the core of your being. It's "magical," the very thing atheists do not want to consider.
My son, a recovering alcoholic, attends AA meetings and had to be "dried" out. He told me he wanted to recover but he didn't want God in the picture. Of course, the drying out facility as well as AA uses the twelve steps which are based on a "higher power." He didn't think he could sit through those meetings until one of the instructors said, "Some of you think you can do this without a higher power to assist you. How well has that worked? We are trying to give you the tools to win over this disease. Give faith in a higher power a try. Fake it till you make it.
He did, and he is now 18 months sober and such a remarkably improved person. Transformation, not information was what happened.
The way to recognize someone who is a Jesus follower is not how well they know the Bible but how well they treat those with other ideas and beliefs. Jesus never made fun of those people and was as kind to them as to His own disciples (often to their chagrin).
Biblical accuracy was never a goal in God's mind. The Bible is not a book of information, it is a book about transformation.
How do you know that the "small voice" and "Eureka!" moments (which I might call intuition or clarity) are Divine in nature? (I'm not asking for proof, but for what makes you certain).
I appreciate your long, thoughtful responses. I am not all that wordy, so tend to write short posts.
Congrats on your son's sobriety. That is a happy event.
The sad part is that Jeff is not even pushing religious ideas. It's more like just presenting facts about people who are religious vs secular.
Hmmm...Ozzy translating for jeff....
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)seem to believe. we are not actively against Theism, but 'activist' against the unholy influence of organised (we would say 'man -made') religion in society. 
