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That's the problem. Even if we agree a one on one, people forget, new posters parachute in and it all goes to crap in no time. We really do need a Thread for one on one debates, preferably with a moderator both sides trust ( ) a scoring board and a vote at the end. Polls have been remarkably even in the past. But this is not likely to happen anytime soon, so it's Donnybrook for the moment.
Mind, it often works remarkably well when one of our great brains makes the others stand back and we see the best that Theism can do.
I think a 1 on 1 debate thread would be a great idea, but we both know how that will turn out. This thread was intended to be exactly that kind of thread, between TotN and myself. It was no time before the proposed format was sabotaged. I gave it a shot but it’s obviously not something that can actually work on this forum.
A solution that would work better is for you and me to have an uncluttered discussion via private message, then post the completed, streamlined exchange to a new thread for comments (if you want). Are you interested to give it a try?
It sounds like you have your mind firmly made up.
Do you consider yourself to be open-minded?
Characteristics of Open-Minded People
They believe others have a right to share their beliefs and thoughts
I believe others have an absolute right of free speech to express their beliefs and thoughts.
They want to hear what other people have to say
I want to hear what other people have to say.
They are able to have their ideas challenged
I am willing and able to have my ideas challenged with solid evidential warrant
They don’t get angry when they are wrong
I don’t get angry when I am proved wrong with solid evidence and demonstration. I welcome having my beliefs corrected when evidence and demonstration show that I have made an error of knowledge.
They have empathy for other people
I have empathy for other people. But not tolerance for intentional ignorance.
They are humble about their own knowledge and expertise
I am NOT HUMBLE about my knowledge and expertise. I think that humility is a character defect. Pride Goeth Before Excellence. One should be highly confident and proud of their ability to apprehend and comprehend reality. One should be ashamed of their attempts to evade reality.
Marc, you are so close to being put on my ‘ignore’ list. I just don’t see much value in interacting with someone of your temperament and prejudices.
Thanks for the comment, LearnMe. I agree with your cement theory, which is borne out by the stats. The older a person gets the harder it is for them to change their opinions. With so many elderly posters on R&S the question of “why bother” is even more pertinent. This is not a place for open-minded civil discussion of R&S topics. It’s a place for mocking and criticizing believers. It’s an ineffectual therapy for adult children who’ve had a bad experience with religion. This reality should be at the front of one’s mind when posting any comments on R&S.
(BTW, I offered to have a private discussion with you. Are you not interested?)
For the record, LearnMe's so-called Cement Theory is actually a well-developed psychological theory known as Gestalt Theory. Any perceptions or reactions that become Gestalt are unchangeable. This applies to all perceptual responses to stimuli, including attitudes. The easiest way to test it is to try to undo the gestalt you acquired when learning to read. While there was a time when the letters and words were unintelligible, once you became literate it is impossible to reverse the gestalt and see only unintelligible letters. However, if you do not read Chinese or Japanese characters they will be unintelligible to you. The same process operates on all perceptual phenomenon but it either requires time to form the gestalt (hence the older the more gestalts) or it takes a strong emotional reaction or trauma to form it.
Marc, you are so close to being put on my ‘ignore’ list. I just don’t see much value in interacting with someone of your temperament and prejudices.
You mean you are very defensive about your irrational beliefs and don't want them challenged and exposed as false. You mean that you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your deity claims and do not want someone to demand such evidence. You mean that you have an emotional dependence on your faith, and do not want to hear the FACT that faith is the reason we give when we have no good reason to believe something. Meaning you want your assertions to be valuable and accepted not because they are true, but because YOU ASSERTED THEM. And you asserted them because reason leads to reality, and faith leads to peace, and you value PEACE over KNOWLEDGE and COMFORT over REALITY. And you will not accept the fact that you will live and die without ANY larger significance beyond the local values you establish and implement for your own individual and TEMPORARY existence. It just can't be that way because you just don't WANT it to be that way. And you will ignore reason, and ignore intelligence, and ignore your senses, and ignore your own brain and its efficacy.
I do see your problem. I do understand your fear. I do see why it is powerful to be attracted to the promise of significance, eternal love, and peace. Even if there is no evidence that any of it exists. I do see why fantasy is MUCH more appealing than reality.
But I accept none of it. I believe in what can be demonstrated and measured and/or rationally estimated from empirical reality. That IS what IS. Anything fabricated from fear and asserted as "beyond" or "outside" or "higher", is simple idle ramblings and a psychological analgesic. I prefer life without a safety net made out of crepe paper and shifting mist.
Our lives are magnificent. Our lives are valuable. Our lives are everything we need. Our lives are temporary. Our consciousness is a property of our life, and is as ephemeral as life itself.
That is what the evidence shows. And unless convincing evidence that can be DEMONSTRATED becomes available, any belief in deities or afterlives is incoherent nonsense. That's just the way it is.
Not fun. Not comforting. Not peaceful. But real. And real is its own comfort when considered and accepted by the rational mind.
You mean you are very defensive about your irrational beliefs and don't want them challenged and exposed as false. You mean that you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your deity claims and do not want someone to demand such evidence. You mean that you have an emotional dependence on your faith, and do not want to hear the FACT that faith is the reason we give when we have no good reason to believe something. Meaning you want your assertions to be valuable and accepted not because they are true, but because YOU ASSERTED THEM. And you asserted them because reason leads to reality, and faith leads to peace, and you value PEACE over KNOWLEDGE and COMFORT over REALITY. And you will not accept the fact that you will live and die without ANY larger significance beyond the local values you establish and implement for your own individual and TEMPORARY existence. It just can't be that way because you just don't WANT it to be that way. And you will ignore reason, and ignore intelligence, and ignore your senses, and ignore your own brain and its efficacy.
I do see your problem. I do understand your fear. I do see why it is powerful to be attracted to the promise of significance, eternal love, and peace. Even if there is no evidence that any of it exists. I do see why fantasy is MUCH more appealing than reality.
But I accept none of it. I believe in what can be demonstrated and measured and/or rationally estimated from empirical reality. That IS what IS. Anything fabricated from fear and asserted as "beyond" or "outside" or "higher", is simple idle ramblings and a psychological analgesic. I prefer life without a safety net made out of crepe paper and shifting mist.
Our lives are magnificent. Our lives are valuable. Our lives are everything we need. Our lives are temporary. Our consciousness is a property of our life, and is as ephemeral as life itself.
That is what the evidence shows. And unless convincing evidence that can be DEMONSTRATED becomes available, any belief in deities or afterlives is incoherent nonsense. That's just the way it is.
Not fun. Not comforting. Not peaceful. But real. And real is its own comfort when considered and accepted by the rational mind.
This is the most convincing evidence that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in an egocentric mind. You have no clue what you do NOT know about the actual composition of our Reality that essentially undermines your unwarranted certainty. Your preference for your view is every bit as emotionally determined as the theists you denigrate. Bottom line: You are no Spock.
This is the most convincing evidence that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in an egocentric mind. You have no clue what you do NOT know about the actual composition of our Reality that essentially undermines your unwarranted certainty. Your preference for your view is every bit as emotionally determined as the theists you denigrate. Bottom line: You are no Spock.
You mean you are very defensive about your irrational beliefs and don't want them challenged and exposed as false. You mean that you have no evidence whatsoever to back up your deity claims and do not want someone to demand such evidence. You mean that you have an emotional dependence on your faith, and do not want to hear the FACT that faith is the reason we give when we have no good reason to believe something. Meaning you want your assertions to be valuable and accepted not because they are true, but because YOU ASSERTED THEM. And you asserted them because reason leads to reality, and faith leads to peace, and you value PEACE over KNOWLEDGE and COMFORT over REALITY. And you will not accept the fact that you will live and die without ANY larger significance beyond the local values you establish and implement for your own individual and TEMPORARY existence. It just can't be that way because you just don't WANT it to be that way. And you will ignore reason, and ignore intelligence, and ignore your senses, and ignore your own brain and its efficacy.
As Phet said few posts later 'ot's going to be the same as any other thread'. As i recall it was you hammering away at the rather irrelevant 'cosmic origins' apologetic, so it was never going to go anywhere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwasmadenew
Marc, you are so close to being put on my ‘ignore’ list. I just don’t see much value in interacting with someone of your temperament and prejudices.
This is the most convincing evidence that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing in an egocentric mind. You have no clue what you do NOT know about the actual composition of our Reality that essentially undermines your unwarranted certainty. Your preference for your view is every bit as emotionally determined as the theists you denigrate. Bottom line: You are no Spock.
And, unlike you, what I do not know is not to be invented, it is to be discovered.
That's where skepticism owns and destroys faith. Through self-correction and ever-perfecting demonstration, testing, and refining. You are the one locked in a black hole of dopey intransigent fossilized ignorance. And the fact that you CHOOSE this ignorance is what makes it such a profane disgrace.
Reason and its toolbox (science) are the pinnacle. You need to get with the program and renounce your chosen darkness. And consider doing it soon, because your time is LIMITED, whether you like it or not. The reward is confidence and pride and the knowledge that you own this world, your life, and every minute you have.
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) a scoring board and a vote at the end. Polls have been remarkably even in the past. But this is not likely to happen anytime soon, so it's Donnybrook for the moment. 
