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You for sure ain't big on history. never mind. Christianity was just one more religion in the Roman empire. Eventually, it was legalised to be permitted along with the others. But it had one thing the others didn't - intolerance. It would not alow the others to exist. Three hundred years later, Muhhammad showed that his revelation was true by beating the Christians time and again. You can't argue with success.
Ok. Whatever.
Like yourself. And what authority are you after all?
None, actually. I have no personal authority in the matter. But the existence of a huge religion, and the fact that it developed suddenly from nothing in about 30 AD demonstrates something happened.
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and contradictory and downright false stories that would not only get their testimonies on the 'common theme' (Da Boss tell us ta say he never dun it) struck down as unsafe but the evangelists plus Paul probably and a few Old Testimony dudes too would be looking at perjury charges.
(This also responds to Harry Diogenes and Transponder's points.)
I don't actually try to convince anyone of miraculous things. I don't believe that is possible. I believe a religion should be evaluated on the merits of its teachings alone. Then a person should practice the teachings to see if they are true. By "true" I mean are they spiritually true. Do they lead to a more peaceful life? Do they reduce suffering? etc. Then, through practicing a person may (I'd like to say probably, but who knows) have some transcendent experiences. That will predispose them to believe in something beyond the rational, or to understand that their view of reality is incomplete. Then a person might believe in 'miraculous things.' Maybe not. That belief isn't important. I would never try to convince anyone of something miraculous as those are minor points. The content of the teachings and how that transforms a person is the main point.
Generally, it has not been my experience that atheists believe in supernatural things. But I know atheists who are part of non-theistic religions who do. My husband practices Tibetan Buddhism and he believes the supernatural claim that the Dalai Lama is an emanation of the bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara and has an explanation of how that is possible according to his belief system. So I was merely speaking generally and left out some people who didn't fit that description. I think those people might be the minority. If an atheist believes in something supernatural, how do they explain it?
You ask why do so many religionists try to make their spiritual matters history. I don't know. I think they should stop, and argue their religion on its own grounds---the spiritual validity as evidenced by the transformed lives of its adherents. That was part of my point. To bring up my Buddhist husband again, I've asked him if there was proof that the historical Buddha existed. He said that he didn't really know, but the teachings are verified by their quality. And if there turned out to NOT be the historical Buddha that they came from, he would conclude that whoever it was that wrote the teachings was a Buddha, or Buddhas. I feel the same way about Christianity. That's why I don't believe it useful to argue based on history or science. Whoever the teachings came from was Christ because the teachings themselves have produced the spiritual fruit in my life that they said they would.
Actually you and I are in substantial agreement here. Several times on the forum I have posted that christians would be better off stopping saying this or that in the bible is fact, since, for the most part, they cannot prove that. Instead, discuss the moral teachings. This is what your Buddhist (yea!) husband is saying. The teachings should stand on their own. And this is why I suggest that people take their wisdom from wherever they find it. There is wisdom in the NT. There is wisdom in the Tipitaka. There is wisdom in the sayings of Yogi Berra. I don't care where it comes from. I identify most with Buddhist wisdom, but there is a lot I respect -- in terms of wisdom -- in the NT; I just don't believe in the miracles, and such. But no. What do many christians say -- accept it all or go to hell. I liken it a bit to the kind of "clubs" we used to form when we were children. Clubs that let certain kids in and kept certain kids out. Strong religionists tend to have that same mindset.
(This also responds to Harry Diogenes and Transponder's points.)
I don't actually try to convince anyone of miraculous things. I don't believe that is possible. I believe a religion should be evaluated on the merits of its teachings alone. Then a person should practice the teachings to see if they are true. By "true" I mean are they spiritually true. Do they lead to a more peaceful life? Do they reduce suffering? etc. Then, through practicing a person may (I'd like to say probably, but who knows) have some transcendent experiences. That will predispose them to believe in something beyond the rational, or to understand that their view of reality is incomplete. Then a person might believe in 'miraculous things.' Maybe not. That belief isn't important. I would never try to convince anyone of something miraculous as those are minor points. The content of the teachings and how that transforms a person is the main point.
Generally, it has not been my experience that atheists believe in supernatural things. But I know atheists who are part of non-theistic religions who do. My husband practices Tibetan Buddhism and he believes the supernatural claim that the Dalai Lama is an emanation of the bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara and has an explanation of how that is possible according to his belief system. So I was merely speaking generally and left out some people who didn't fit that description. I think those people might be the minority. If an atheist believes in something supernatural, how do they explain it?
You ask why do so many religionists try to make their spiritual matters history. I don't know. I think they should stop, and argue their religion on its own grounds---the spiritual validity as evidenced by the transformed lives of its adherents. That was part of my point. To bring up my Buddhist husband again, I've asked him if there was proof that the historical Buddha existed. He said that he didn't really know, but the teachings are verified by their quality. And if there turned out to NOT be the historical Buddha that they came from, he would conclude that whoever it was that wrote the teachings was a Buddha, or Buddhas. I feel the same way about Christianity. That's why I don't believe it useful to argue based on history or science. Whoever the teachings came from was Christ because the teachings themselves have produced the spiritual fruit in my life that they said they would.
Oh yes, sure. It was a thread designed to poke holes in the Gospel -story, not so much as to debunk any kind of Theism. There's not much point in getting into a debate about the 'god' (the rule is lower case (with quotes (1) - for irreligious theists, not just atheists) that is the Intelligent cosmic Mind that is the god of al religions or none. Because we don't know and nobody does. They only Believe that they do.
(1) we have to do this meticulously in order to ensure that nobody get confused:
god - unbelievers
'god' irreligious theists
"god" "agnostics"
God Christians
"God" Non -dogmatic Christians.
G*d, God (swat and pub) and so on - all the non Christians venturing onto Christian territory.
It verified to me that he was far more advanced than anyone, he knew Reality; what this
so-called matter is and how to shape or transform it down to the atoms...water, weather, illness, his own
body, someone's health from a distance was a biggy.
It did not 'prove' that he was God, the son of God or the Messiah...but, it did prove he was VERY special....guiding the way for us....like the first one to break the 4 minute mile, or the first
woman to break the glass ceiling...
it opened the mind of others to the 'new possible'.
Did God say from the sky, This is my son listen to him?...I dunno, I was not there....but, when
we get that advanced I would call him 'my son' if I was God...and say it with pride and joy!
Even though I was raised a Christian, I spent a number of years pursuing other paths. It was my experience of yoga and meditation that ended up convincing me of the supernatural claims of Jesus, along with what I learned about the bodhisattva path in Buddhism, and then I came back. But not as a Christian who believes all others are wrong and hellbound. Truth is truth wherever it is found and religions at their mystical levels (not the literal levels the many like to stay at) teach similar things.
Even though I was raised a Christian, I spent a number of years pursuing other paths. It was my experience of yoga and meditation that ended up convincing me of the supernatural claims of Jesus, along with what I learned about the bodhisattva path in Buddhism, and then I came back. But not as a Christian who believes all others are wrong and hellbound. Truth is truth wherever it is found and religions at their mystical levels (not the literal levels the many like to stay at) teach similar things.
My gut reaction to that (which i'm rather inclined to go along with) is that I'm cool with it.
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Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
None, actually. I have no personal authority in the matter. But the existence of a huge religion, and the fact that it developed suddenly from nothing in about 30 AD demonstrates something happened.
Just the same as a lot of other religions - which you would presumably dismiss as false, right? While dismissing Their miracles and wagging around Yours as being better.
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um...what?
Never mind If you don't get it, everyone else will
You don't think an angel handing over a book of Golden Plates is supernatural. I guess this makes you a blasphemer.
And the story of 1 young man making incredible claims does not equate to 66 different books written by different authors over a span of 1000+ years, all with a common theme.
And the story of 1 young man making incredible claims does not equate to 66 different books written by different authors over a span of 1000+ years, all with a common theme.
There are people who sometimes make me question my disbelief.
You're not one of them.
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Ok. Whatever. 
Probably the leaders deleted all records & killed all witnesses, as evil leaders do.
