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What a novel idea, discussing the topic posted. Here it is to just jolt the memory
Right off the bat we were off on a wild goose chase which is just so much more fun than actually taking up the spirit of the topic - misguided considering the humongous amount of human rights and civil right violations against humanity present right now. I also did not say anything of the kind as the last sentence which was added by Mensa to just spice things up.
Here is the thing. Regardless of what the SC has ruled, the constitutional amendment itself is ambiguous, and it is so on purpose. On the one had it prevents any religious interference in making laws or the govt. to sponsor any religion, the way UK and Saudi Arabia do with Christianity and Islam.
On the other hand it promotes religion by giving tax breaks for church properties and golf courses, vouchers for private and parochial schools, and allow states to administer much of the religion business.
If the intention of the amendment were crystal clear there would not be a need to take cases of prayer in schools and other public institutions to court. The intention is ambiguous, it gives space for the kinds of religious ceremonies that DO take place withing govt buildings and spaces led by the leaders in the government. This is American secualrism and the majority of Americans are good with that.
What is the atheist aim in fighting prayer? Why would they expend energy and money fighting it? Is it just that they are safeguarding the 1st amendment? The establishment clause requires no defense, it is already secure, has never been violated.
It is the freedom to practice religion then that they are against. Yet several atheists (other than this forum I personally know only one atheist) here stated they have nothing against religion, only against the strict monotheistic idea of a creator god. Never mind many religions don't even have that belief of a creator god, including the monotheistic religions which have modified their idea of god, and have space for all kinds of beliefs. They don't mind all the other symbols of religion, but it is just prayer that frightens them.
Nobody is asking for prayer meeting at town hall meeting. Everyone who attends these meeting want to get the business done and go home. To begin the meeting with an invocation to the spirits be to guide the meeting is such a small thing. To fight it is not just meaningless, it makes atheists and their cause look ridiculous and out of pace with the times.
Your points have all been addressed, haven't they? Whether or not you agree aside, you have your answers.
Your points have all been addressed, haven't they? Whether or not you agree aside, you have your answers.
Dear Petunia, as important as you are, I am not addressing only you. There may be others who may be interested in the topic, might have some interesting ideas and unlike you, may not have all the answers. And your answers are not very satisfying, we may want to ponder more. CD likes that, they like more clicks.
My ignore list is already long. Please spare me the effort of adding you to it. If you have answered everything you can, let me suggest you move to topics you have not answered yet.
Dear Petunia, as important as you are, I am not addressing only you. There may be others who may be interested in the topic, might have some interesting ideas and unlike you, may not have all the answers. And your answers are not very satisfying, we may want to ponder more. CD likes that, they like more clicks.
My ignore list is already long. Please spare me the effort of adding you to it. If you have answered everything you can, let me suggest you move to topics you have not answered yet.
I wouldn't brag about having a long ignore list. A few posters on it...that's probably wise. I limit myself to 3 posters on my ignore list, and don't always have that many. Why? Ignore is the base word of ignorant. And the less one listens to others, the more ignorant one usually is. What you're creating for yourself is an echo chamber, which is why you cannot understand why others are so offended by prayers in public institutions.
I wouldn't brag about having a long ignore list. A few posters on it...that's probably wise. I limit myself to 3 posters on my ignore list, and don't always have that many. Why? Ignore is the base word of ignorant. And the less one listens to others, the more ignorant one usually is. What you're creating for yourself is an echo chamber, which is why you cannot understand why others are so offended by prayers in public institutions.
The longer the ignore list, the more cowardly the poster.
Dear Petunia, as important as you are, I am not addressing only you. There may be others who may be interested in the topic, might have some interesting ideas and unlike you, may not have all the answers. And your answers are not very satisfying, we may want to ponder more. CD likes that, they like more clicks.
My ignore list is already long. Please spare me the effort of adding you to it. If you have answered everything you can, let me suggest you move to topics you have not answered yet.
This thread is 100 pages long; if you have not yet received any responses you find interesting and/or satisfying, perhaps some clarification is in order.
Ignore me or don't, as you wish. It is of no importance to me.
What is the atheist aim in fighting prayer? Why would they expend energy and money fighting it? Is it just that they are safeguarding the 1st amendment? The establishment clause requires no defense, it is already secure, has never been violated.
It is the freedom to practice religion then that they are against. Yet several atheists (other than this forum I personally know only one atheist) here stated they have nothing against religion, only against the strict monotheistic idea of a creator god.
And here are their names between the brackets. ()
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
Never mind many religions don't even have that belief of a creator god, including the monotheistic religions which have modified their idea of god, and have space for all kinds of beliefs. They don't mind all the other symbols of religion, but it is just prayer that frightens them.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO. It is ALSO symbols of religion on public land. Prayers in meetings is just one part of the problem. How can you attack something when do not even know what you are arguing against?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
Nobody is asking for prayer meeting at town hall meeting. Everyone who attends these meeting want to get the business done and go home. To begin the meeting with an invocation to the spirits be to guide the meeting is such a small thing.
You do realize it would last two minutes shorter without the prayers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb2008
To fight it is not just meaningless, it makes atheists and their cause look ridiculous and out of pace with the times.
Yes, we know your argument, we have refuted it the last 7436 times you made it.
You are so out of pace with the times you do not realize that even now there are Christian groups in the US (some organized) who would like to set up a Christian theocracy, and many of them want a white only nation. Prayers in meetings is just the start of the slippy slope.
Your irrational hatred of atheism is so great, you would rather live under a neo-Nazi theocracy, and who cares about those non-Christian religions that would also be victims.
You do not think this could happen? Did you think Brexit could happen? Or the storming of the White House? Lift your eyes from you navel and look around. Then choose your allies.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO. It is ALSO symbols of religion on public land. Prayers in meetings is just one part of the problem. How can you attack something when do not even know what you are arguing against?
You do realize it would last two minutes shorter without the prayers?
Yes, we know your argument, we have refuted it the last 7436 times you made it.
You are so out of pace with the times you do not realize that even now there are Christian groups in the US (some organized) who would like to set up a Christian theocracy, and many of them want a white only nation. Prayers in meetings is just the start of the slippy slope.
Your irrational hatred of atheism is so great, you would rather live under a neo-Nazi theocracy, and who cares about those non-Christian religions that would also be victims.
You do not think this could happen? Did you think Brexit could happen? Or the storming of the White House? Lift your eyes from you navel and look around. Then choose your allies.
The problem Harry, is you're talking sense to a person who simply doesn't "get" it.
One of my favorite things about cutting across their lawn...is hearing them yell, "Get off my lawn!".
I actually get a kick outta that.
If they want a real thrill...they should go to the Middle-East and openly bash their Religious Beliefs & them for holding those beliefs, just like they do here! That'll keep 'em hoppin'!
You are a sinner and sounds like you are proud of it.
Nice YANK!
your gang leader will be happy
Last edited by The Last Amalekite 1Sam15; 04-30-2021 at 02:49 PM..
While it may seem as if we have drifted from the topic, I don't think we have.
Here's what religionists need to take away from this:
You religionists tire of the constant sniping at your religion by atheists. I can understand that.
We atheists tire of the constant dominance of christianity in this country (America). We don't mind when you pray at home. We don't mind when you pray at church. I don't mind if I see a religious and/or christian group in a public park praying over their picnic or reunion. Most of us don't mind when we see someone who is apparently praying silently even in public places. But we do mind when we go to a public meeting NOT about religion, and are forced to participate in your prayers. We do mind when we go to a school graduation and a christian prayer is said when there are atheists, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus and other non-christians present and participating in the activity. We mind when Congress -- which is supposed to represent ALL Americans, including non-christians -- have to watch Congressional meetings open with a christian prayer. And don't act as if christians accept and respect other religions; I've heard enough comments made (both in this forum and without) to know that's horse manure (not saying some don't, but there is fairly common disdain for non-christians). We mind when religious symbolism is present on courthouse lawns and in tax-payer paid-for buildings, because our tax dollars were part of how that building was paid for.
Now there are exceptions. One year I was invited by a friend to a "Jewish Thanksgiving", and I was told that I would be the only non-Jew there. Religion was a minor part of the day, and it certainly wasn't Buddhist religion. But that was an appropriate place and expectation for that. On the other hand when a christian couple invited me to dinner and expected me to actively participate in the pre-dinner christian prayer, I was offended that they were annoyed when I ALSO said a brief Buddhist blessing.
Some of you are aware that I am Buddhist and have spent a great deal of time in Thailand. I love Thailand, and even lived there for a couple of years. Buddhism is even more dominant there than christianity is here. Well, it's their country, so who am I as an expat to demand something different. But it does not mean that I approve of that dominance of my own religion in that country. I don't approve of monks blessing fighter jets, tanks, and ammunition. I don't approve of religious symbolism -- even of my own religion -- in public movie theaters, or shopping malls, or other public places. And the reason that I don't approve of it is that while 95% of the Thai public may be Buddhist, 5% are Muslim...and it's their country, too. And it is very obvious to see why there is such religious unrest in the country, particularly in the southern province, and very especially the three most-southern provinces...and it all centers around religion.
You mention several things about religion that you don’t approve of. OK.
What about people discussing religion and spirituality on a Religion & Spirituality forum?
Is that something you approve of, or do you see that as an imposition as well?
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