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'feel' Jesus, like feeling of love? It's not the same ... it's a knowing, not a feeling. and Atheist have a tendency to explain it all away with a certainty they've done themselves and others a great service for doing so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Whether we feel we're doing a service to others is a completely different discussion. And what love is to you is not love to me or Harry. That's not evidence. I can love someone that you have no feelings for. Harry is capable of not loving at all. So am I. Love doesn't prove a thing. I ask again: what independent evidence do you have to show us that Jesus is real? Can you point to a person whose arms or legs grew back as a result of praying to God in Jesus' name that can be independently verified by impartial scientists? Do you have video evidence of Jesus appearing to a crowd of people? Do you have even one secular historian who mentions Jesus in the 1st Century?
Well, I didn't see your response before this one. If you have no evidence then you're in the position that all Christians are in: you cannot prove to disinterested parties that Jesus is real, therefore there's no good reason for disinterested parties to believe in Jesus. That's the state of affairs and frankly has been since Christianity was invented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
And what love is to you is not love to me or Harry.
Exactly that is why I put a ? mark to my statement, which was a statement and a question in one. The same is within Christ as it is a knowing, not a feeling. Love is an emotion that can not be explained and is much harder to obtain, than the emotion of hate. And you know this, just as those who know Christ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Can you point to a person whose arms or legs grew back as a result of praying to God in Jesus' name that can be independently verified by impartial scientists?
In a time, where as, the State holds all power over the people, there is but one power in which the State cannot control. The story of the resurrection of Christ proved it. imo, for those failing to understand that, the State holds all power, physically and spiritually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Well, I didn't see your response before this one. If you have no evidence then you're in the position that all Christians are in: you cannot prove to disinterested parties that Jesus is real, therefore there's no good reason for disinterested parties to believe in Jesus.
No one needs to prove Christ is real or not real. Doing so is inconsequential to God's will being done. If the earth began moving towards the sun, can man stop it? The earth's movements belong to the laws of nature, man can neither make it move or stop it from moving ... man is not in control. He is in control of his own destiny, however ...
Think of all the power that man has --- then remember what was said by Christ. Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. In the day that was said, both the Church and State stood together as one. Everything a person, a community was, within their beliefs, their culture, their rituals was done because it was the law of the land and if they broke those laws there were consequences for their actions. If a person came up with an idea that was not the norm for that time it was asked, by whose authority do you speak these words? And if they hadn't been given authority it was certain death. In the story of Christ we find that He broke those rules ...
There are no laws to define what we know as people and just as we love differently we also know differently, too. A person's spirituality is that of their own. Only they hold the power; the key to unlock it.
Exactly that is why I put a ? mark to my statement, which was a statement and a question in one. The same is within Christ as it is a knowing, not a feeling. Love is an emotion that can not be explained and is much harder to obtain, than the emotion of hate. And you know this, just as those who know Christ.
In a time, where as, the State holds all power over the people, there is but one power in which the State cannot control. The story of the resurrection of Christ proved it. imo, for those failing to understand that, the State holds all power, physically and spiritually.
No one needs to prove Christ is real or not real. Doing so is inconsequential to God's will being done. If the earth began moving towards the sun, can man stop it? The earth's movements belong to the laws of nature, man can neither make it move or stop it from moving ... man is not in control. He is in control of his own destiny, however ...
Think of all the power that man has --- then remember what was said by Christ. Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. In the day that was said, both the Church and State stood together as one. Everything a person, a community was, within their beliefs, their culture, their rituals was done because it was the law of the land and if they broke those laws there were consequences for their actions. If a person came up with an idea that was not the norm for that time it was asked, by whose authority do you speak these words? And if they hadn't been given authority it was certain death. In the story of Christ we find that He broke those rules ...
There are no laws to define what we know as people and just as we love differently we also know differently, too. A person's spirituality is that of their own. Only they hold the power; the key to unlock it.
Well, again okay. All are free to feel whatever gods they choose to feel. No evidence is required. You are free to believe in Jesus, the next guy is free to believe in Krishna, the guy after that is free to believe in Mithra. I'm free to believe in no one. And all are happy. And that's fine as long as everyone stays in their own backyard. What ruffles my feathers is when the Christians step out of their backyard and into mine and tell me I have to believe in Jesus or I will go to hell and burn forever. That's when I go on the warpath and show them that they have no good reason to believe in Jesus because it can be proved the gospel Jesus they so fervently are trying to convince me to believe in never existed. And then they really get angry because what I have to say threatens their unfounded beliefs.
Exactly that is why I put a ? mark to my statement, which was a statement and a question in one. The same is within Christ as it is a knowing, not a feeling. Love is an emotion that can not be explained and is much harder to obtain, than the emotion of hate. And you know this, just as those who know Christ.
In a time, where as, the State holds all power over the people, there is but one power in which the State cannot control. The story of the resurrection of Christ proved it. imo, for those failing to understand that, the State holds all power, physically and spiritually.
No one needs to prove Christ is real or not real. Doing so is inconsequential to God's will being done. If the earth began moving towards the sun, can man stop it? The earth's movements belong to the laws of nature, man can neither make it move or stop it from moving ... man is not in control. He is in control of his own destiny, however ...
Think of all the power that man has --- then remember what was said by Christ. Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. In the day that was said, both the Church and State stood together as one. Everything a person, a community was, within their beliefs, their culture, their rituals was done because it was the law of the land and if they broke those laws there were consequences for their actions. If a person came up with an idea that was not the norm for that time it was asked, by whose authority do you speak these words? And if they hadn't been given authority it was certain death. In the story of Christ we find that He broke those rules ...
There are no laws to define what we know as people and just as we love differently we also know differently, too. A person's spirituality is that of their own. Only they hold the power; the key to unlock it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Well, again okay. All are free to feel whatever gods they choose to feel. No evidence is required. You are free to believe in Jesus, the next guy is free to believe in Krishna, the guy after that is free to believe in Mithra. I'm free to believe in no one. And all are happy. And that's fine as long as everyone stays in their own backyard. What ruffles my feathers is when the Christians step out of their backyard and into mine and tell me I have to believe in Jesus or I will go to hell and burn forever. That's when I go on the warpath and show them that they have no good reason to believe in Jesus because it can be proved the gospel Jesus they so fervently are trying to convince me to believe in never existed. And then they really get angry because what I have to say threatens their unfounded beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
And that's fine as long as everyone stays in their own backyard.
Now try to imagine a time where the authority of one's being rest solely on the State and the Church. Today it's your neighbor that gets your feathers ruffled ... without the evolution of society and their beliefs we might all be getting together at a town square for the ritual of sacrifice to the sun god. And guess what ... you'd be fine with it, we all would, because we wouldn't know any different and if we did and we said there's a different way, we would be silenced. (that was their world and how they lived; there are those that still live that way today)
Those preaching the gospels were told to cease and desist by those in authority or else they would loose their heads; many did loose their heads, because they wouldn't shut up about it even after being told. Gotto love whistle blowers, no matter what the era or whistle either.
You mention criteria for Christ's existence. (something I thought about while going about the rest of my day) The early church fathers wrote papers so as to establish Christ's legitimacy (therefore His existence) through Mary and/or Joseph who adopted Him as his own. For Christ to be born, the first miracle is that Mary wasn't stoned to death while with child, because she was pregnant by an unknown donor. No Kingdom was going to recognize an illegitimate child, nor would that child be counted by a census taker who knew the law. This doesn't mean He didn't exist, it just means He was never counted as a part of the society (or of this world) by the standards that had been adopted in law. (there are those today, that are not counted by gov number or census, but they are very much alive and living)
The story of Christ isn't written about until 30 - 60 years after His death and resurrection and it took them 300 years to establish the books we know as the New Testament. However, the verbal stories were circulating from kingdom to kingdom within all that time. We still do this today, spread things by word-of-mouth and only to those we feel sure of --- and He could have been hung as a John Doe. There were no historians in the era of Christ's birth and death --- that would be 300 years in the making, as centuries go.
Today He is our spiritual savior and the toughest thing we have today is to stay with Him as the world pulls us farther and farther away. For you it's unfounded beliefs, but those in Christ it's freedom. No matter what goes on in this world there is one constant those who know Christ can count on.
And the question I have for you is are you sure that's true? That people are free to believe in whatever it is they want to believe? Because like I said, I'm still waiting on the enlightened to show up, where as, our spirituality isn't being made a political tool. (imo, religion is a four letter word) Our spirituality isn't of this world, but it keeps getting pulled into it none-the-less, where as, the only proof it exist must be made by government or science, when there are somethings neither can explain, because it isn't a physically tangible item. It is said that when asked of Christ by whose authority do you speak, His reply? It wasn't the Church or State, that's for sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
And then they really get angry because what I have to say threatens their unfounded beliefs.
I can see that, but I don't believe they get angry. Your statement reminded me the time during Desert Storm, two young girls showed up on my doorstep; one telling me that the religious war had begun and it won't be long now. (Christ's second coming) She told me she had literature that would help me to prepare.
I stepped back just a bit from the door and looked at my t.v. that was on, as I was monitoring things (my husband, now ex deceased was in the Army) and I told her that I had yet to see men on white horses draped in blood warring on the desert displayed on the t.v. I also informed her that I had a great big pamphlet that has helped me to prepare in the event and for sure I didn't need to pack my toothbrush for the trip, because I wouldn't need it. I thanked them for their time and concern and they left, but before they left I noticed the young girl standing behind the one that spoke, she smiled. That smile was either, because she recognized I knew all that was needed to know, or I had just made a complete a-- of myself and that's what a person does, when someone does that ... lol.
You know what you know thrillobyte, and you won't be led astray cause it doesn't make sense for you. Well, neither would I be led by those two young women. But at the end of the day, one has to ask themselves, does it really matter? Each time you begin one of these threads, you've started by telling people what they already know. If you can start one that tells people what they don't know, then you might make some headway. Because it has been known for 7000 years, there's no proof, of Christ's existence and yet people make sense of their world through Him, everyday. Weird huh ...
I believe people can hallucinate visitations with Jesus just like Hindus hallucinate visitations with Vishnu and Krishna. None of it proves the gods they are having visitations with are real except to the people who are hallucinating and maybe some gullible wet behind the ears Christians who fall for this sort of nonsense. "Direct contact and immersion" that's quite a term of art but of course the reality of all this remains with the person having the experience and the people who believe them.
It's odd that you say you don't believe in Satan because according to the gospels even Jesus believed Satan was real.
Jesus was a Jew. Satan in Judaism works for God, testing people. Jesus was not referring to the personification-of-evil Satan he morphed into after Paul.
People know because they feel it and once they know it, they can't unknow it. It lays within their spiritual sense, also known as their 6th sense.
Just as other religions 'know', 'feel', perceive', which means they must also be true, and therefore the exclusive, one and only god must be false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
The Bible is an oral history and tells of how people made sense of their world, both personal and political. imo, no one has ever found Christ in the Bible. What they have found are people within whom they can relate to in their experience today ... It's a history the never changes, no matter the century and it never grows old, but always remains the same. From those words, there is Christ. Through Christ, the world makes sense.
How do you know it is an oral history, you were not there to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
I have a theory about atheist. It is my belief they don't want to know and they won't give their spiritual sense the light of day ...
Why just atheists? That must also be true for all non-believers in Christianity, whether they are religious or not. They too have this 'spiritual sense', which leads them to different religious beliefs.
Maybe they too find Christianity difficult to believe due it's stories about Jesus magically producing a fish supper, or Saint Peter resurrecting a cooked fish, both fishy stories.
Now try to imagine a time where the authority of one's being rest solely on the State and the Church. Today it's your neighbor that gets your feathers ruffled ... without the evolution of society and their beliefs we might all be getting together at a town square for the ritual of sacrifice to the sun god. And guess what ... you'd be fine with it, we all would, because we wouldn't know any different and if we did and we said there's a different way, we would be silenced. (that was their world and how they lived; there are those that still live that way today)
I confess I don't know where you're going with this, Ellis. I'll try my best to address your points. Frankly, I have no idea what this has to do with me saying that I don't like people of a faith telling me I'm going to go to hell if I don't accept Jesus. How can I accept a mythical being who history demonstrates never existed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
Those preaching the gospels were told to cease and desist by those in authority or else they would loose their heads; many did loose their heads, because they wouldn't shut up about it even after being told. Gotto love whistle blowers, no matter what the era or whistle either.
I will point something out to you, Ellis. Did you know that there isn't an instance in the Old Testament of God saying he loves humans until Hosea 3:1. But there sure is plenty of expressions of hatred toward people if actions speak louder than words. Yahweh is a human construct. He has emotions like a human; he gets angry when you do something to **** him off; he hates certain classes of people; he repays harm with harm. He's no kind of a god I can respect. Richard Dawkin had it exact when he said of Yahweh:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.â€
The Jews invented their god over a long period of time to conform to the kind of god they wanted for their people. That's plainly evident.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
You mention criteria for Christ's existence. (something I thought about while going about the rest of my day) The early church fathers wrote papers so as to establish Christ's legitimacy (therefore His existence) through Mary and/or Joseph who adopted Him as his own. For Christ to be born, the first miracle is that Mary wasn't stoned to death while with child, because she was pregnant by an unknown donor. No Kingdom was going to recognize an illegitimate child, nor would that child be counted by a census taker who knew the law. This doesn't mean He didn't exist, it just means He was never counted as a part of the society (or of this world) by the standards that had been adopted in law. (there are those today, that are not counted by gov number or census, but they are very much alive and living)
Yeah, sure of course they wrote papers to to establish Jesus' legitimacy. He had no legitimacy in the 1st century. No historian mentioned Jesus, so they had to make Jesus legitimate by writing papers that attempted to establish him as a real person. You talk about Mary as if she was a real person. She wasn't. She's a variation on Isis who bore Horus. Look at the similarities between Isis and Mary:
Isis was the most prominent female figure in ancient Egyptian religion. Mary is the most important female figure in Christianity.
Isis had a son named Horus. Mary had a son named Jesus.
When Horus was born, his father, Osirus, was already dead, which is very much like the birth of Jesus, fathered by the Holy Ghost.
Both Isis and Mary are depicted in art as being maternal and holding their infant deities.
Isis protected Horus from an evil uncle, which was much like Mary protecting Jesus from King Herod.
Both Isis and Mary have primary roles in their respective religious movements as the eternal mother.
“Lady of Light†is a title given to both Mary and Isis. The infant Horus was born as the god of light for Egypt, while Jesus is known as the light of the world.
Isis has a solar disk of light over her head and Mary has a halo of light above her head.
The story of Christ isn't written about until 30 - 60 years after His death and resurrection and it took them 300 years to establish the books we know as the New Testament. However, the verbal stories were circulating from kingdom to kingdom within all that time. We still do this today, spread things by word-of-mouth and only to those we feel sure of --- and He could have been hung as a John Doe. There were no historians in the era of Christ's birth and death --- that would be 300 years in the making, as centuries go.
Today He is our spiritual savior and the toughest thing we have today is to stay with Him as the world pulls us farther and farther away. For you it's unfounded beliefs, but those in Christ it's freedom. No matter what goes on in this world there is one constant those who know Christ can count on.
There were historians in the time of Jesus. The most prominent was Philo of Alexandria who was in Jerusalem at the time Jesus was preaching. He doesn't mention a word of Jesus when though he was there when all these miraculous things during Jesus' crucifixion was going on. This is one of the biggest problems I have with Christians. They are so ignorant of the things they try to expound on. Sorry, I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a fact.
"Today he is our spiritual savior". This is a personal opinion. For others, Krishna is their spiritual savior. For others, Superman is their spiritual savior. For you, Jesus is your savior--even though there isn't a nickel's worth of evidence any of them are real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
And the question I have for you is are you sure that's true? That people are free to believe in whatever it is they want to believe? Because like I said, I'm still waiting on the enlightened to show up, where as, our spirituality isn't being made a political tool. (imo, religion is a four letter word) Our spirituality isn't of this world, but it keeps getting pulled into it none-the-less, where as, the only proof it exist must be made by government or science, when there are somethings neither can explain, because it isn't a physically tangible item. It is said that when asked of Christ by whose authority do you speak, His reply? It wasn't the Church or State, that's for sure.
I can see that, but I don't believe they get angry. Your statement reminded me the time during Desert Storm, two young girls showed up on my doorstep; one telling me that the religious war had begun and it won't be long now. (Christ's second coming) She told me she had literature that would help me to prepare.
I stepped back just a bit from the door and looked at my t.v. that was on, as I was monitoring things (my husband, now ex deceased was in the Army) and I told her that I had yet to see men on white horses draped in blood warring on the desert displayed on the t.v. I also informed her that I had a great big pamphlet that has helped me to prepare in the event and for sure I didn't need to pack my toothbrush for the trip, because I wouldn't need it. I thanked them for their time and concern and they left, but before they left I noticed the young girl standing behind the one that spoke, she smiled. That smile was either, because she recognized I knew all that was needed to know, or I had just made a complete a-- of myself and that's what a person does, when someone does that ... lol.
I don't know how to reply to all this, Ellis, sorry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
You know what you know thrillobyte, and you won't be led astray cause it doesn't make sense for you. Well, neither would I be led by those two young women. But at the end of the day, one has to ask themselves, does it really matter? Each time you begin one of these threads, you've started by telling people what they already know. If you can start one that tells people what they don't know, then you might make some headway. Because it has been known for 7000 years, there's no proof, of Christ's existence and yet people make sense of their world through Him, everyday. Weird huh ...
Ellis, if people already know that Jesus is phony as a 3-dollar bill then why do they argue with me? Your question is flawed.
Jesus was a Jew. Satan in Judaism works for God, testing people. Jesus was not referring to the personification-of-evil Satan he morphed into after Paul.
This is true. Satan originally was God's prosecutor, like an attorney. His job was to accuse people thereby allowing God to step in and defend them. Satan's job was to make God look good. But the early church had a much more useful role for Satan--making him the guy who would get his hooks into you and drag you to hell if you didn't accept Jesus. What can I say? It's all so phony and contrived it's sickening that billions of people have fallen for this tripe. Chalk it up to man's stupidity.
People know because they feel it and once they know it, they can't unknow it. It lays within their spiritual sense, also known as their 6th sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Just as other religions 'know', 'feel', perceive', which means they must also be true, and therefore the exclusive, one and only god must be false.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
The Bible is an oral history and tells of how people made sense of their world, both personal and political. imo, no one has ever found Christ in the Bible. What they have found are people within whom they can relate to in their experience today ... It's a history the never changes, no matter the century and it never grows old, but always remains the same. From those words, there is Christ. Through Christ, the world makes sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
How do you know it is an oral history, you were not there to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell
I have a theory about atheist. It is my belief they don't want to know and they won't give their spiritual sense the light of day ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Why just atheists? That must also be true for all non-believers in Christianity, whether they are religious or not. They too have this 'spiritual sense', which leads them to different religious beliefs.
Maybe they too find Christianity difficult to believe due it's stories about Jesus magically producing a fish supper, or Saint Peter resurrecting a cooked fish, both fishy stories.
I too find Christianity difficult to believe, more so today since it's evident to me that they have kicked Christ out of the church. You know in some churches He'd have to have a meeting with the pastor before being admitted into the congregation to hear a sermon. (Behold, I stand at the door and knock)
As for as magic? I guess that would be magical for most, to have the ability to do more with less. (as time moves forward, that lesson is going to become more apparent) And as for as resurrecting a cooked fish? Never heard that one before. But I have heard, teach a man to fish, in the learning how, he'll never go hungry again. I guess that must be a lie too, huh. Or at the very least, a fairy tale. (more so today since we pollute the very thing that is suppose to give us sustenance so that we don't go hungry)
As for as people recognizing their spiritual sense and adapting that sense to their culture --- I don't believe in a right way or a wrong way, but rather 'a way' and God's will is served.
How do we know it's oral history? I'll answer that one with a question. How do we know that man evolved? Someone told us man had and explained evolution to us and we believed 'em on the origins of man. Yes? and so they say ...
Before man could speak words, he drew on cave walls. Only the high priests were allowed in the caves to interrupt the drawings. (hieroglyphics; Greek for sacred drawings) The high priest it was thought to be the only one with intelligence to lead the people. The go between, between the people and the knowledge those symbols held, were priests, no one else was allowed in the caves. (homo sapiens didn't begin their lives on this planet, with the ability to read, write and do arithmetic, as well as, with human rights and brick and mortar churches.)
Oral traditions among people of the communities within Kingdoms that emerged began to develop in how they communicated one with another --- did you hear? That tradition has continued among many groups of people throughout the ages ... Oral Traditions
Quote:
“The Elders would serve as mnemonic pegs to each other. They will be speaking individually uninterrupted in a circle one after another. When each Elder spoke they were conscious that other Elders would serve as ‘peer reviewer’ [and so] they did not delve into subject matter that would be questionable. They did joke with each other and they told stories, some true and some a bit exaggerated but in the end the result was a collective memory. This is the part which is exciting because when each Elder arrived they brought with them a piece of the knowledge puzzle. They had to reach back to the teachings of their parents, grandparents and even great-grandparents. These teachings were shared in the circle and these constituted a reconnaissance of collective memory and knowledge. In the end the Elders left with a knowledge that was built by the collectivity.†~ Stephen J. Augustine ~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Diogenes
Just as other religions 'know', 'feel', perceive', which means they must also be true, and therefore the exclusive, one and only god must be false.
I'm going to ask you a question that my agnostic brother asked me decades ago (it began for us a very interesting conversation, not one I care to replicate her, but the question is relevant)
I confess I don't know where you're going with this, Ellis. I'll try my best to address your points. Frankly, I have no idea what this has to do with me saying that I don't like people of a faith telling me I'm going to go to hell if I don't accept Jesus. How can I accept a mythical being who history demonstrates never existed?
I will point something out to you, Ellis. Did you know that there isn't an instance in the Old Testament of God saying he loves humans until Hosea 3:1. But there sure is plenty of expressions of hatred toward people if actions speak louder than words. Yahweh is a human construct. He has emotions like a human; he gets angry when you do something to **** him off; he hates certain classes of people; he repays harm with harm. He's no kind of a god I can respect. Richard Dawkin had it exact when he said of Yahweh:
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.â€
The Jews invented their god over a long period of time to conform to the kind of god they wanted for their people. That's plainly evident.
Yeah, sure of course they wrote papers to to establish Jesus' legitimacy. He had no legitimacy in the 1st century. No historian mentioned Jesus, so they had to make Jesus legitimate by writing papers that attempted to establish him as a real person. You talk about Mary as if she was a real person. She wasn't. She's a variation on Isis who bore Horus. Look at the similarities between Isis and Mary:
Isis was the most prominent female figure in ancient Egyptian religion. Mary is the most important female figure in Christianity.
Isis had a son named Horus. Mary had a son named Jesus.
When Horus was born, his father, Osirus, was already dead, which is very much like the birth of Jesus, fathered by the Holy Ghost.
Both Isis and Mary are depicted in art as being maternal and holding their infant deities.
Isis protected Horus from an evil uncle, which was much like Mary protecting Jesus from King Herod.
Both Isis and Mary have primary roles in their respective religious movements as the eternal mother.
“Lady of Light†is a title given to both Mary and Isis. The infant Horus was born as the god of light for Egypt, while Jesus is known as the light of the world.
Isis has a solar disk of light over her head and Mary has a halo of light above her head.
There were historians in the time of Jesus. The most prominent was Philo of Alexandria who was in Jerusalem at the time Jesus was preaching. He doesn't mention a word of Jesus when though he was there when all these miraculous things during Jesus' crucifixion was going on. This is one of the biggest problems I have with Christians. They are so ignorant of the things they try to expound on. Sorry, I don't mean that to be offensive, it's just a fact.
"Today he is our spiritual savior". This is a personal opinion. For others, Krishna is their spiritual savior. For others, Superman is their spiritual savior. For you, Jesus is your savior--even though there isn't a nickel's worth of evidence any of them are real.
I don't know how to reply to all this, Ellis, sorry.
Ellis, if people already know that Jesus is phony as a 3-dollar bill then why do they argue with me? Your question is flawed.
Perhaps you both act in hopes the other will see reason?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I confess I don't know where you're going with this, Ellis. I'll try my best to address your points. Frankly, I have no idea what this has to do with me saying that I don't like people of a faith telling me I'm going to go to hell if I don't accept Jesus. How can I accept a mythical being who history demonstrates never existed?
Soon people won't have to worry about others expressing concerns over their spiritual well being. Evolution continues within the social construct ... You may be in luck here with hell too. I heard the other day from a snippet of the Joe Rogan Experience show, he said that the Pope has declared there is no hell. I interpret that as, we've now declared there are no consequences for our actions. Which also goes against the Newton's third law of the universe --- for every action there is an equal reaction.
If those of faith are still knocking on doors, I am impressed they are not worried about a law suit. I figure they must be concerned, which would be the reason I haven't seen anyone at my door, since 1990.
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Did you know that there isn't an instance in the Old Testament of God saying he loves humans until Hosea 3:1. But there sure is plenty of expressions of hatred toward people if actions speak louder than words.
In the old testament we have a story of a man building a boat in the middle of a drought in the anticipation of a flood and the people calling him a fool. Him being saved from the flood, blind luck or love? There is also the story of the slaves being released, again, blind luck or love? (I'm sure there's more, but those two are the only ones that pop)
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Richard Dawkin had it exact when he said of Yahweh
Reminds me of our government leaders ...
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Yeah, sure of course they wrote papers to to establish Jesus' legitimacy. He had no legitimacy in the 1st century.
If He did not exist in their laws eyes --- you're right, He didn't exist. Are you trying to modernize those folks or what?
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The most prominent was Philo of Alexandria who was in Jerusalem at the time Jesus was preaching.
He was philosopher, not a historian.
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"Today he is our spiritual savior". This is a personal opinion. For others, Krishna is their spiritual savior. For others, Superman is their spiritual savior. For you, Jesus is your savior--even though there isn't a nickel's worth of evidence any of them are real.
What you are missing in your accounting here is, the personal experience, one which is as different as we are different humans.
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