Jesus Christ of the Gospels Never Existed. He's a Myth and I Can Prove It (Part 1). (Jerusalem, Mary)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well, props for honesty. "If for the sake or argument [insert ideology you don't like here] were correct, i'd rather have fairy tales". That is religion in a nutshell.
BTW it is highly arguable that nihilism inspires despair. The term gets tossed around pretty casually. Nietzsche saw nihilism as a robust, positive philosophy so it is just possible that what gets labeled "nihilistic" these days doesn't have all that much to do with at least what Nietzsche envisioned or advocated. That could mean he was drop-dead wrong or it could mean that his ideas have been widely (often deliberately) misunderstood / misconstrued and/or hijacked. I tend to think the latter. That the Nazis (ab)used nihilism to justify their own execrable behaviors doesn't mean it was inherently supportive of bigotry and hatred, and that people today tend to misunderstand it doesn't make it a source of despair either.
Not that I am a disciple of Nietzsche or something. But I for example argue that there is no INHERENT meaning or purpose to human existence or endeavor and then when I immediately qualify that with a BUT (but there is plenty of meaning and purpose for one to find and live by just the same) people seem not to want to hear the BUT. And would thus label me "nihilistic" and assume I am walking around with a german accent bemoaning that "life is meaningless" and looking for ways to kill myself.
Since Nihilism is a false philosophy, and also a depressing one, there are extraordinarily few consistent and committed Nihilists.
Since Nihilism is a false philosophy, and also a depressing one, there are extraordinarily few consistent and committed Nihilists.
All you're doing is repeating an assertion. As I believe I said (IDK maybe I just imagined saying it), the fact that life has no INHERENT meaning does not require you to slit your throat; it is in fact a beautiful and liberating insight that frees you up to MAKE meaning for yourself rather than borrow someone else's curated meaning. Existential nihilism might be purposely misunderstood by, e.g., angsty young people looking for an excuse to be dark, but that does't make it either "false" or depressing.
“Otto Rank and Lord Raglan noticed that mythical characters often share similar biographical traits. They attempted to score people against biographical criteria that supposedly allowed mythical and historic characters to be distinguished. Jesus's biography fits Lord Raglan's hero pattern remarkably well, with Jesus having a score of 18 to 20 out of 22. This makes him comparable with several legendary heroes, like Romulus and King Arthur (both 19) and Hercules (17).”
Here are the 22 traits. You will readily notice nearly all of them in the story of Jesus as it appears in the gospels:
Mother is a royal virgin(Jesus' mother Mary was a descendant of David)
Father is a king
Father often a near relative to mother (Joseph was 2nd cousin to Mary)
Unusual conception (Jesus' mother, Mary impregnated by the Holy Spirit)
Hero reputed to be son of god(Jesus was the son of God)
Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather (Herod tried to kill Jesus when he was a baby)
Hero spirited away as a child (Jesus, Mary and Joseph flee to Egypt)
Reared by foster parents in a far country (Jesus reared in Egypt until Herod dies)
No details of childhood (Jesus' childhood is a complete blank)
Returns or goes to future kingdom (Jesus goes to temple and proclaims himself fulfillment of Isaiah prophecy)
Is victor over king, giant, dragon or wild beast (Jesus defeats Satan)
Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
Becomes king (“This is Jesus, King of the Jews”)
For a time he reigns uneventfully
He prescribes laws (Jesus' teachings on how one should live)
Later loses favor with gods or his subjects (Jews deliver Jesus up to be crucified)
Driven from throne and city
Meets with mysterious death (Jesus, declared by Pilate to be innocent, is still crucified)
Often at the top of a hill (Jesus on Golgatha)
His children, if any, do not succeedhim
His body is not buried (Jesus not thrown in a pit as per custom)
Has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs (Jesus buried in Joseph of Arimathea's tomb)
Note a list of the other mythical heroes who share nearly all the same traits as Jesus: Oedipus (21 or 22 points), Theseus (20 points), Moses (20 points) Dionysos (19 points), Romulus (18 points), Heracles (17 points), Perseus (18 points), Jason (15 points), Bellerophon (16 points), Pelops (13 points),, Apollo (11 points), Zeus (15 points), Joseph (12 points), , Elijah (9 points)
Let's take a look at #'s 6-9 from the above and see how other mythical heroes' childhood from before Jesus compare with his:
You recall King Herod sought to kill baby Jesus so Joseph and Mary spirited him away to Egypt to raise him until Herod died? Well, other mythical heroes' lives from before Jesus look almost exactly like his. This would essentially prove that the gospel writers were borrowing events from mythical characters' lives to work into Jesus' life as demonstrated:
Krishna:
Krishna was the son of Vasudeva and Devaki but, when his maternal uncle Kamsa, the wicked king of Mathura, tried to kill him, he was smuggled across the Yamuna River to Gokula and raised by the leader of the cowherds, Nanda and his wife Yashoda.
Perseus:
King Acrisius consulted the Oracle at Delphi, who warned him that he would one day be killed by his daughter's son.
Compare with Jesus' mythology:
King Herod consulted the chief priests and teachers of the law who told him that the Messiah king of the Jews would be born in Bethlehem. Herod feared that Jesus one day would kill him and take his throne.
Perseus: Acrisius casts Perseus into the sea in a wooden chest. Chest washes ashore in a far country and Perseus is found by a fisherman who raises Perseus to manhood. No details of his childhood.
Jesus: Joseph warned by an angel to that Herod would kill Jesus so he takes Mary and baby Jesus to Egypt to raise him until Herod is dead. No details of Jesus' childhood. (One incident of losing Jesus in the temple when he was 12)
Moses:
According to the Midrash Pharaoh killed all the male babies because he feared a Hebrew would lead a revolt against him. So Moses' mother spirits him away in a basket on the Nile. Moses is found by Pharaoh's sister and raises him as her son. No details of Moses' childhood.
Notice in all four stories a fearful king is told a future usurper will kill him so he tries to kill the child before the child comes to manhood. The child escapes to a foreign land until he returns. This was a very popular devise used by storywriters in the ancient world and Jesus' story is no exception.
Even absent that evidence it never seemed a stretch to me that a wealthy and therefore influential person could not have such a request granted, especially since it was at his own expense. There are lots of things that are a stretch in NT accounts, but IMO this isn't one of them.
Of course this whole discussion is under the assumption that even the non-miraculous / fabulist aspects of the gospels are accounts of actual events -- a dicey proposition IMO.
Even absent that evidence it never seemed a stretch to me that a wealthy and therefore influential person could not have such a request granted, especially since it was at his own expense. There are lots of things that are a stretch in NT accounts, but IMO this isn't one of them.
Of course this whole discussion is under the assumption that even the non-miraculous / fabulist aspects of the gospels are accounts of actual events -- a dicey proposition IMO.
Just curious as I haven't really followed this thread and don't know if you've ever mentioned it, but are you a Jesus mythicist?
Just curious as I haven't really followed this thread and don't know if you've ever mentioned it, but are you a Jesus mythicist?
I lean that way, though not with great enthusiasm. It's a pointless side show IMO. My lack of belief in Fabulist Miracle Working God Man Jesus isn't related to or dependent on disbelieving in Historical Jesus as a basis for same. I've just grown increasingly unimpressed with the historicity of much of the NT figures and narratives and less trustful of the scholarly consensus on the dating of the NT books, etc.
I lean that way, though not with great enthusiasm. It's a pointless side show IMO. My lack of belief in Fabulist Miracle Working God Man Jesus isn't related to or dependent on disbelieving in Historical Jesus as a basis for same. I've just grown increasingly unimpressed with the historicity of much of the NT figures and narratives and less trustful of the scholarly consensus on the dating of the NT books, etc.
Many of the other things on your list are bunk as well.
I never insinuated in the OP that Jesus was buried in a hole as would have been the custom.
Taken from the vantage point that you believe Jesus was real, the situation is that we have no documentary evidence what happened to Jesus' body one way or the other. You believe the gospel accounts are accurate so you believe Joseph took Jesus' body. Your evidence is that it's possible the Romans bent the rules at times and allowed family and friends to take bodies of crucified criminals. I have no problem with your supposition. Assuming Jesus was real, maybe he was buried in a tomb, maybe he was buried in a ditch. Can't be proven one way or the other unless you take the gospels as...uhh...gospel.
From my vantage point that Jesus was written as a mythical hero in a long tradition of a dozen mythical heroes who came before him, the story of Jesus being buried in a tomb fits the Rank-Raglan mythotype of ancient heroes suffering an unusual death dying on a hill and resurrecting.
Heracles died on Mt. Oeta.
Krishna died on Mt. Bhalka
Both resurrected just like Jesus and ascended to heaven.
So according to the mythology it's very likely the writers of the Jesus myth would have chosen likewise to have Jesus die on a hill and be buried in a holy sepulcher.
I never insinuated in the OP that Jesus was buried in a hole as would have been the custom.
Taken from the vantage point that you believe Jesus was real, the situation is that we have no documentary evidence what happened to Jesus' body one way or the other. You believe the gospel accounts are accurate so you believe Joseph took Jesus' body. Your evidence is that it's possible the Romans bent the rules at times and allowed family and friends to take bodies of crucified criminals. I have no problem with your supposition. Assuming Jesus was real, maybe he was buried in a tomb, maybe he was buried in a ditch. Can't be proven one way or the other unless you take the gospels as...uhh...gospel.
From my vantage point that Jesus was written as a mythical hero in a long tradition of a dozen mythical heroes who came before him, the story of Jesus being buried in a tomb fits the Rank-Raglan mythotype of ancient heroes suffering an unusual death dying on a hill and resurrecting.
Heracles died on Mt. Oeta.
Krishna died on Mt. Bhalka
Both resurrected just like Jesus and ascended to heaven.
So according to the mythology it's very likely the writers of the Jesus myth would have chosen likewise to have Jesus die on a hill and be buried in a holy sepulcher.
So your claim is what? That since Jesus wasn't buried (thrown in a pit) that this somehow proves that Jesus was a myth? What kind of 'proof is that'? Many Jewish families were able to bury their dead in a tomb carved out of soft rock on the side of a hill. Nothing unusual about that. And that Joseph of Arimathea was willing to have Jesus buried in his tomb which was NOT a holy sepulcher . . .it was a tomb, is certainly plausible. And were all or most of the mythical characters you mentioned entombed in a tomb carved out of rock? Do you have original source material to prove that?
Furthermore, the disciples, which you claim didn't exist, but did, didn't invent a myth based on earlier mythical heroes or gods. Historians, including critical historians who do Jesus studies recognize that the disciples really believed they saw the risen Jesus.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
