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I have always believed in God, on some level, as this world is too perfect to have come into existence without a Creator. My justification, you might ask? - What other planet even remotely resembles ours?
Which is also a problem for your god, that a perfect god just existed. How convenient.
I'd be happy to answer, Miss Hepburn. The Christians have been lying to people about Jesus since he was invented. And they have fooled billions and billions of people over the millennia to believe he was real when in fact even their own church hierarchy has been in on the scam since at least the 13th century, Look at what Pope Boniface VIII said about Jesus:
“The sums of money which the fable of Christ has produced the priests are incalculable.” [SIZE=2](c.1290)[/SIZE]
In 1514, Pope Leo X, at a lavish Good Friday banquet, in the Vatican, in the company of seven intimates, Leo X famously stated the following as he raised his toast glass to the air: [1]
“How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us and our predecessors.”
The pope's pronouncement, since characterized as the “most infamous and damaging statement about Christianity in the history of the Church”, was recorded in the diaries and records of both Pietro Cardinal Bembo (Letters and Comments on Pope Leo X, 1842 reprint) and Paolo Cardinal Giovio (De Vita Leonis Decimi..., op. cit.), two associates who were witnesses to it.
Now if the Popes are in on the Jesus fable, yet they're telling the common folks Jesus was real, doesn't that bother you in the least? And if it bothered you wouldn't you want to try to get the truth out to the hapless people being fed these lies when the Church's inner hierarchy has been in the scam from the start?
That's why I make these threads. I cannot stand the hypocrisy of the church leaders, most of whom are probably closet atheists anyway and are in the Christian racket solely for the job security.
What a dumb post. The alleged and infamous "fable of Christ" statement by Pope Leo X has long since been debunked.
Your desperation is reaching pathetic levels at this point, thrill.
No. It's "he said, she said". Where there's smoke, there's fire. Given how corrupt many of the Popes were I don't doubt for a second they believed Jesus was a fable to be used and sold as a means of attaining earthly pleasures. Read about the corrupt popes the church has had:
It is possible for religious leaders to be lacking in faith and virtue. A Pope's alleged lack of faith/virtue has no relevance as to whether or not the Gospel accounts are true.
It is possible for religious leaders to be lacking in faith and virtue. A Pope's alleged lack of faith/virtue has no relevance as to whether or not the Gospel accounts are true.
I always thought the Pope Leo quote was like a badly-written villain's dialog, but often the banality of evil is like that. At any rate I have never used it as a data point, because regardless of how debatable it is, the perfidy of religious leadership is pervasive enough in general that the particulars almost don't matter.
You are correct of course that such unvirtuous behaviors don't speak to the veracity of the Gospel accounts or whether Jesus was an actual person, but I don't think that is Thrill's claim, either. His point seems to be that all we have to show for it all is a non-trivially corrupt and oppressive structure that isn't exactly covering itself in glory. He's flirting with ad hominems and drifting off-topic for his OP but he does have something of a point.
In response to this you can fall back on minimization of the above-stated problems or the notion that god is just working with imperfect people and that's fine ... just doesn't float my boat anymore. If Christian leadership can't usually acquit itself better than secular leadership then what is the point.
The Catholic church has made others aware by putting Mark 16:9-20 in [brackets] and adding several footnotes and commentaries in ALL of their published Bibles regarding this passage. So, I would not be so confident to say that "Very few Christians are aware..."
It does seem apparent that perhaps YOU aren't aware of how many older manuscripts actually include these verses.
Once again, look at the link above. It's only about a 5 minute read.
Most apologists worth their salt won't conclude that Mark 16:9-20 was lost. They will say that it's a possibility that it was lost when some copies were made. In fact, in the footnotes in my Catholic Bible on Mark 16: 1-8 it says (in part), "This abrupt termination causes some to believe that the original ending of the gospel may have been lost." (emphasis added by me)
Maybe Mark ran out of papyrus before he could finish...maybe he handed it off to someone else who told him, "I'll finish it for ya!"...
In my Bible's introduction to Mark it states, "...Jesus goes before the disciples into Galilee;"there you will see him." These words may imply resurrection appearances there, OR Jesus' parousia there, OR the start of Christian mission, OR a return to the roots depicted in 1:9, 14-15 in Galilee. Other hands have attached additional endings after 16:8..." (emphasis added)
Ever hear of the Freer Logion, thrill?
I'll get into other possibilities in a moment...
OR, it could be NONE of what you (laughably) describe.
Again, from the footnotes on Mark 16:9-20: "Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark." (emphasis added by me)
It? There is the short, the long, the very long, and the Bobiensis endings. The content in the long ending contains text from the other gospels and Acts, so I agree it was written by someone else.
Yeah, right. A myth seen in-person by thousands, over several years, across a regional area, with those then spreading word of who they saw. Yep, sounds like a myth alright. Might as well say our next door neighbors are myths, those down the street, people at work, etc. Hey, we're all myths!
A myth seen in-person by thousands, over several years, across a regional area, with those then spreading word of who they saw, according to the later, fictional gospels.
Of course, every plant has been uniquely created by God. Ours, of course, is quite unique, as we have yet to find evidence of life outside of Earth.
We have created and found explanations to answer why certain things occur. That does not mean we have found every answer, however, because there may be questions that we do not know exist... As we have no definitive answer to some of life's most basic questions, it is foolish to dismiss the possibility of a Creator.
No, it is foolish to assert a creator, as a creator raises more questions than it answers. Such as how it knows things, how does it store it's knowledge, and how do you know the answers to questions like these.
It is possible for religious leaders to be lacking in faith and virtue. A Pope's alleged lack of faith/virtue has no relevance as to whether or not the Gospel accounts are true.
Just as a religious leader's belief in faith and virtue has no relevance as to whether or not the Gospel accounts are true.
Just as a religious leader's belief in faith and virtue has no relevance as to whether or not the Gospel accounts are true.
Correct.
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