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I'm editing because I was too generous in my original version.
Re-reading I found what I originally said was "a downright destructive 'truth' is something I might indeed choose to ignore. Not reject, but 'live as if it wasn't true.'" So for one I said "might" and for another I said I would not "reject" such a truth, but I would live as if it wasn't true.
With word parsing like this, now you can see why I had to read your words so narrowly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
In the other post the only thing contradictory is the idea I'd switch to Confucian/Taoism. This indicates a possible change, but it doesn't indicate I'd live as or identify as an atheist. Because I wouldn't. The option of identifying as atheist was never mentioned by me and is not going to be mentioned. There is literally nothing that can make that happen, not even disbelief in God. Further my first option was essentially to still live as a Catholic albeit a Humanistic one. And I only gave that answer because you were so persistent.
Who cares if you would live as, or identify as, an atheist? That's irrelevant.
The only question was, if atheism is correct, would you want to know? Because earlier, you indicated that atheism would be better left ignored if it offered nothing more than truth. But challenged, you backed off that. (Now it looks like you are afraid to commit to either position.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Basically your question was treated way way more seriously by me than it deserved. I allowed your persistence, and my obsessive need to not drop things, cloud my judgment. I should've simply given you a polite sneer or jeer and been on my way. That I treated some impossible hypothetical as much of anything is likely a foolish error on my part. One I hope I never repeat.
No need to be such a drama queen. Remember, you are the one who joined me in debate, not the other way around.
This started when look 3467 said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467 I am still waiting for a better offer of hope for humanity from the non believers.
Blessings, AJ
And I responded:
Quote:
Atheism is about truth.
It is irrelevant if that truth offers anyone hope. It's only virtue is that it happens to be right, and to a great degree, adds some clarity and organization to ones outlook on life.
Unlike most religions, Atheism is not a psychological crutch, to help you sleep at night. It is what it is, whether that is a pleasant or disturbing fact doesn't really matter.
You are the one who decided to respond to my post by saying:
Quote:
This is probably a big part of why atheism doesn't have much of a future. ...(snip)
....At the very least people want something that's true and useful. If you have nothing to offer than "shut up and take your medicine" than it is right and proper that atheism remain the prerogative of depressives, ivory tower intellectuals, and marginalized cranks. (Not that the claim of being true is remotely valid. I'm just saying even if I bought your premise than I don't buy your conclusion. If atheism were a truth that has no value than it is truth best left ignored. At least the truths of science or math help us build widgets or cure disease)
No one invited your opinion.
But since you offered it, it turns out that by now even you know you were wrong.
Because by your own statements, if you bought my premise, you do buy my conclusion. If atheism were true but had no value, then you would not want to ignore it. You would want to know about, and you would react, even if your reaction would differ from mine.
So your original response to me was not intellectually honest. You made it to take some shots at atheism. But in reality, you didn't believe what you yourself said.
I just stopped for a moment and just read the almost 4 pages of thread titles. About 99 percent of the titles were negative or sarcasticc towards this "one" faith. I find that fascinating.
So.....little ol' me. I decide to make a "good" thread about Christianity. Hey....no group is perfect. Anybody that really reads the bible will see that. But there is definitely an almost irrational hatred for a faith that has quite frankly done a lot of good for a lot of people. Both believers and non-belivers.
Now I know this attempt will be derailed in less than 4 posts. then it'll be off to the races again. But I just want to a least give it a shot.
Would we really be better off if Beatle John Lennon’s imaginary world of no heaven or religion came true? Bruce Manners doesn’t think so.
Imagine. “Imagine there’s no heaven . . .” sang John Lennon. “. . . and no religion too.” The implication is that the world would be a better place without religion. Wrong. Christianity has changed the world in dramatic and positive ways.
Imagine . . . A World Without Christianity (http://www.signsofthetimes.org.au/archives/2006/may/article1.shtm - broken link)
Moderator cut:
Modified in order to adhere to copyright
Of course atheists have a lower fertility rate! They are not brainwashed into thinking you HAVE to have a ton of kids. I knew a few pentecostal women who were depressed over having so many kids but could never speak up!
I am childless myself and intend to remain so. I'm just talking biology and selection.
You are the one who decided to respond to my post by saying:
No one invited your opinion.
You're right, that was an error. My interest in the topic wasn't as great as I expected so I just ended up impatient and annoyed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
But since you offered it, it turns out that by now even you know you were wrong.
Hmm no. I was referring to some hypothetical about atheism being true. In such a case I wouldn't necessarily want to know that, but I thought you meant how would I respond if I did "know" that. Further what I want doesn't necessarily say anything about people in general. That I might want to know something that would either not effect my life or make it worse is not necessarily a great thing. It's possibly a character flaw, maybe a big one. In fact that I seem to find myself, online, trapped in conversations with people like you is maybe a sign of my obsessiveness and an unhealthy curiosity.
I think a conversation between you and me is maybe better if I'm not in it. You don't like or believe any of my answers anyway. You think I'm lying or playing with you. So conversation with you was a mistake and in the future you can continue this argument as it started, without me.
Last edited by Thomas R.; 09-29-2009 at 07:09 AM..
You're right, that was an error. My interest in the topic wasn't as great as I expected so I just ended up impatient and annoyed. Hopefully it won't happen again.
You're right. It was your error - because you were trolling. You wanted to find a vehicle to take some shots at atheist and atheism. But your dishonesty was exposed in the end. Let's both hope it doesn't happen again.
You're right. It was your error - because you were trolling. You wanted to find a vehicle to take some shots at atheist and atheism. But your dishonesty was exposed in the end. Let's both hope it doesn't happen again.
If that's how you see it that's how you see it. However I believe I posted on this thread before you did. Also I believe this thread is titled "how about a 'positive thread on Christianity'" and that my first post was more on-topic than your first post here. And that I am not good at effectively communicating to you.
I do see now that maybe I made attempts to answer what I thought you were asking rather than what you were asking. You were asking "If there was no God would you want to know" rather than "What would you do if there was no God" which is a distinction.
If there were no God would I want to know that? Well if there were no God there would be no way for me to know that without someone demonstrating there is no God. Which gets me back to the question I did answer. I guess I was trying to answer the question I could answer instead of an unanswerable hypothetical you asked. Although I do understand why you asked it.
Anyway you live you learn. Peace Zai Jian!
Last edited by Thomas R.; 09-29-2009 at 08:18 AM..
You were asking "If there was no God would you want to know" rather than "What would you do if there was no God" which is a distinction.
If there were no God would I want to know that? Well if there were no God there would be no way for me to know that without someone demonstrating there is no God. Which gets me back to the question I did answer. I guess I was trying to answer the question I could answer instead of an unanswerable hypothetical you asked. Although I do understand why you asked it.
Anyway you live you learn. Peace Zai Jian!
Amazing deflection huh, Boxcar? Ever tried to corner a chicken out in the barnyard? They simply don't want to get caught and are real hard to corner!
Looks like you have the makings of a good religious belief, since you've got it all figured out.
Now, what is your offer to humanity? What hope are you offering?
Blessings, AJ
I haven't been posting much lately as work and home has been pretty busy. As I read through this thread, this particular post struck me.
Hope? Hope of what? If you are speaking of the eternal, well I would suggest two ways of looking at it:
1. If one does not believe in the eternal, then ALL religion is irrelevant and so is all the hope for a better afterlife. Your post is then pointless.
2. If one does believe in the eternal, I would submit that most religions bring promises of a better afterlife, so therefore all religions offer hope. This is not unique to Christianity. If indivduals can find comfort or solace in whatever religion that suits them, then the hope of the Christian message is meaningless. Once again, then your post is pointless.
If this hope you speak of is in terms of THIS life, well let's consider this:
1. Religion is FULL as A-holes. Priests that diddle little kids and a church hierarchy that attempts to cover it up; frauds like Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard; ripoff artists like Jim Bakker, Robert Tilton and Benny Hinn; power brokers like Pat Robertson and James Dobson. This isn't just limited to Christianity. The phony Hindu yogis, gurus and swamis; rip-off NewAge groups and fake Native Americans; and of course no list of religious A-holes would be complete without mentioning everybody's favorite - THE JIHADISTS! Funny thing...all of these offer "hope".
2. Historically, religion as a whole, has not presented much in the way of hope in this life. Been mentioned many times, but one can never say it enough: Crusades, Inquistion, Witch-Trials, Sharia Law, the Counter-Reformation, Protestant vs Catholic wars and persecutions; Islam vs Hindu wars and persecutions; Shintos persecuting Buddhists...on and on and on. Yeah, religion is just a peach.
3. Being Native American, I am not impressed with the "hope" Christianity brought to our various nations. This hope so many Christians speak of has been nothing but a destructive force to so many cultures. Misery is its signature for those who are/were not of the faith that is offering this "hope". Look at the African continent as well for the good effects of the "hope". Good job Church and Mosque!
Bottomline, "hope" is highly overrated. I prefer to see results. Maybe people just need to quit being a-holes. Maybe people should just be allowed to live their lives the way they wish without there always being some a-hole or group of a-holes always telling them what they can and can't eat, wear, say, listen to, see, write, believe in or who they can or can't associate with or, yes, even love. As George Carlin once put it so well:
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work."
Last edited by Fullback32; 09-30-2009 at 04:46 PM..
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But I just want to a least give it a shot.
Bah-gawk!!!!
