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Because we have the ability to choose right from wrong, good from evil makes us subject to the desires of the flesh.
And unless there is an external influence over the desires of the flesh to curb the lusts of the flesh, I'm afraid we are without hope.
You can not live the life that you want because there will always be some one who wants part of you, be it a neighbor, the enemy,the government.
Evil is an ever present danger and nothing can conquer evil except good.
The life of Jesus was brought into form to demonstrate that only good can conquer over evil.
And Jesus said it Himself, there is none good except God.
Except God Himself conquers evil for us by His standard of Good, we are hopeless.
Looking at the trend the world is taking, can you see the leaders of countries, nations not desiring the good of the people, but only what good they can get out of it for them selves?
And the thought that we should just be left alone with no eternal Godly principle influences, give the world hope of Utopia?
Let me say this, that evil is not limited to any one group, but infiltrates all groups.
Blessings, AJ
Ah but see, this still does not address what this "hope" of religion is. Religion has been around for a LONG time and yet nothing is better for it on the wide scale. Yes, for individuals, but no for the world at large.
Individuals, whether believer or unbeliever, can choose to do what is right. They do it all the time. Individuals make the difference. Group think, group mentality and group organization tends to create the observed abuses and problems that religion brings. Why? Because with organizations come positions of authority and with positions of authority comes power. I am not impressed with religion at all (personally, I don't see a lot of difference between organized religion and government). Individuals can make the difference...not organized religions. Organized religion and group think are a cancer and cause nothing but trouble. Look just within organized Christianity and the infighting between denominations. When we identify with a group, whether we call it Christian, Lutheren, Baptist, Catholic, Assembly of God, we see differences. We are right; they are wrong. This leads to everything else.
No, faith/spirituality/belief (whatever you want to call it) or unbelief must come from individuals and Creator (or not Creator). In my culture, spiritual matters are a very personal thing. It is one that only exists between Creator and that person. It is for no one else nor is it anyone else's place to attempt another to go their way. This is why among Indian people, we may have warred over access to the buffalo herds, we may have warred about water, we may have warred against raiders from other tribes, but we never warred over religious matters. Each person determines what their relationship with spiritual matters is and we respect each other's ways.
Once individuals can come to peace whether in belief or unbelief, then we can do good things without this external source you speak of. For those who still do evil things, they will do so regardless of their stance on spiritual matters. How many "men of god" have proven this to be true?
Ah but see, this still does not address what this "hope" of religion is. Religion has been around for a LONG time and yet nothing is better for it on the wide scale. Yes, for individuals, but no for the world at large.
Individuals, whether believer or unbeliever, can choose to do what is right. They do it all the time. Individuals make the difference. Group think, group mentality and group organization tends to create the observed abuses and problems that religion brings. Why? Because with organizations come positions of authority and with positions of authority comes power. I am not impressed with religion at all (personally, I don't see a lot of difference between organized religion and government). Individuals can make the difference...not organized religions. Organized religion and group think are a cancer and cause nothing but trouble. Look just within organized Christianity and the infighting between denominations. When we identify with a group, whether we call it Christian, Lutheren, Baptist, Catholic, Assembly of God, we see differences. We are right; they are wrong. This leads to everything else.
No, faith/spirituality/belief (whatever you want to call it) or unbelief must come from individuals and Creator (or not Creator). In my culture, spiritual matters are a very personal thing. It is one that only exists between Creator and that person. It is for no one else nor is it anyone else's place to attempt another to go their way. This is why among Indian people, we may have warred over access to the buffalo herds, we may have warred about water, we may have warred against raiders from other tribes, but we never warred over religious matters. Each person determines what their relationship with spiritual matters is and we respect each other's ways.
Once individuals can come to peace whether in belief or unbelief, then we can do good things without this external source you speak of. For those who still do evil things, they will do so regardless of their stance on spiritual matters. How many "men of god" have proven this to be true?
True, hope in individuals to do right is a a hope that comes from the conscience which is the spiritual end of us.
When that spiritual end has communion with those of similar views, a religion is formed, be it a religious and or a non religious view.
The hope I am referring to is a hope that has communion with the creator and identifies with a particular group with similar views.
Strength to hold true, in times of persecution, suffering, helps by assembling oneself with a group with similar views and hopes.
A family of believers or a family of unbelievers.
If religion were not so important in the human physic 'e, the majority of the human race would never have had gods of their own making to offer their allegiance to.
That has been the case since the beginning of the human race.
Not until the revelation of, by word and demonstration, the true God was made at a predetermined time in human history.
The option then is, accept or reject this revelation on the individual basis.
There in, is my view, that hope lies for humanity for the good.
Things that organize humanity do allow for greater mischief, but also allow for greater benefit.
Christians were pretty bad to the American Indian so I understand the argument there being more difficult. Still several American Indian peoples did have religions that involved collective or group actions and ceremonies. So respectfully I think some of what you're saying isn't true of all Indian tribes. In some they didn't war over religion not because religion was individual, but because it was tribal and non-expansionist. Still in Meso-America civilizations like the Maya or the Aztec would fight for religious reasons. Even in the US the Hopi, a generally peaceful people, did destroy a village for becoming Catholic as this was seen as tainting it. (I seem to have lost the paper I wrote on Hopi history, I think it was Old Oraibi) It wasn't to expand their religion, in the US no or virtually no tribe had a proselytizing faith before European contact, but more like defense or purification. Still that's not intensely different from Old Testament Jews burning down a village for going pagan.
I say all this with some discomfort as American Indian issues do concern me and I've even given to causes related to them. In general I respect/understand why many American Indians would be bitter toward Christianity. Still the organized actions of Christians or Hopi pagans or Muslims or Buddhists wasn't always or everywhere bad. At the very least they allowed for great works of art and architecture. They also provided support systems that taught people to read, nurtured the sick, etc.
I wonder if I should post a thread requesting positive remarks about Atheism.
If you did I would either say nothing or think of something positive to say. Likely other Christians would not be so respectful, but then again atheists were not remotely respectful to the intent of this thread.
Things that organize humanity do allow for greater mischief, but also allow for greater benefit.
Christians were pretty bad to the American Indian so I understand the argument there being more difficult. Still several American Indian peoples did have religions that involved collective or group actions and ceremonies. So respectfully I think some of what you're saying isn't true of all Indian tribes. In some they didn't war over religion not because religion was individual, but because it was tribal and non-expansionist. Still in Meso-America civilizations like the Maya or the Aztec would fight for religious reasons. Even in the US the Hopi, a generally peaceful people, did destroy a village for becoming Catholic as this was seen as tainting it. (I seem to have lost the paper I wrote on Hopi history, I think it was Old Oraibi) It wasn't to expand their religion, in the US no or virtually no tribe had a proselytizing faith before European contact, but more like defense or purification. Still that's not intensely different from Old Testament Jews burning down a village for going pagan.
I say all this with some discomfort as American Indian issues do concern me and I've even given to causes related to them. In general I respect/understand why many American Indians would be bitter toward Christianity. Still the organized actions of Christians or Hopi pagans or Muslims or Buddhists wasn't always or everywhere bad. At the very least they allowed for great works of art and architecture. They also provided support systems that taught people to read, nurtured the sick, etc.
I agree with you whole heartily.
I wish to understand the American Indian/Christian situation like this; I feel that God gives the urge, the promptings to promote the Gospel to all the world via corruptible individuals.
Not all, but some used religion to an advantage for gain, for what ever the reason for the gain was.
The thing is, that the flesh is very corruptible, both physically and mentally.
And the only messengers available to convey Gods message are subject to corruption.
So, it is easy to lump corrupt individuals to the whole as representation of the whole.
Because there were priests corrupted by lust for children does in no way make the whole organization corrupt.
So, I believe in being open to the possibility of any organization religious or not become corrupt because of a few and label the whole as corrupt.
Every evil thing done has to be a learning experience for the rest.
Today, I would not think to injure or hurt in any way anybody who disagreed with my religious beliefs, because of the learned experiences of the past generations, teaching me that what was done was not a good thing.
Your words "Things that organize humanity do allow for greater mischief, but also allow for greater benefit" applies to what I just said.
It only shows the fallibility of the human soul and or the greatness it could achive as a benefit towards humanity.
But because I am biased towards God, I can only see good as being one letter short of God being good.
I wonder if I should post a thread requesting positive remarks about Atheism.
Would you expect fair treatment if you did?
I mean, just look at all the negativism demonstrated here against the positive.
I can tell you what the positive outcome would be if you did.
Out of the differences, some, not all would learn from the argument to either improve on their tolerance one for another or suffer learning for another day.
The thought comes to me about this verse: Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. "without form, void and darkness, the face of it being deep is akin to a condition of religious differences being a deep face existing for the express purpose for the Spirit of God to move on it as in the individual heart and making of, in the midst of all of it a new spirit of life, as something beautiful.
So the Spirit of God moves in the midst of chaos to make something beautiful as per that verse.
If you did I would either say nothing or think of something positive to say. Likely other Christians would not be so respectful, but then again atheists were not remotely respectful to the intent of this thread.
If the intent of this thread was to promote good Christian PR, maybe no one should be surprised that it didn't work out that well. People tend to disagree from time to time on the interweb.
But I was speaking hypothetical. I wouldn't start a thread expecting only good things to be said about atheism.
Finally, I think its fair to warn you that, just because my post followed yours, that didn't mean I was directing my post toward you. I wouldn't want you to make another mistake and start taking my post seriously.
If the intent of this thread was to promote good Christian PR, maybe no one should be surprised that it didn't work out that well. People tend to disagree from time to time on the interweb.
It can just be about cleansing the palate. So many threads in R&P are about bashing or tearing down that being positive might be a nice corrective. Or intended as such.
I'd be perfectly happy to start a thread on the positive elements of Zoroastrianism or Baha'i or Sikhism even though I'm none of those things. In the case of Christianity the focus here tends to be solely on the negatives and I think this creates an unbalanced viewpoint. So efforts at correctives seem sensible and perhaps even needed. Unless we're to see this section purely as a course on deconversion and detachment from Christianity. (Which seems like it'd be more appropriate in Agnosticism/Atheism. For a group that claims not to proselytize atheists certainly do preach a great deal. The fervor committed online atheists have to smashing idolatry and superstition is something my faith hasn't had in generations. I certainly can't imagine an utter devotion to disproving the Ramayana or Avesta)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxcar Overkill
But I was speaking hypothetical. I wouldn't start a thread expecting only good things to be said about atheism.
Finally, I think its fair to warn you that, just because my post followed yours, that didn't mean I was directing my post toward you. I wouldn't want you to make another mistake and start taking my post seriously.
Of course of course and that warning is appreciated. You do provide a certain utility as a jumping off point for my own thoughts, but I'll endeavor never to confuse that again for anything of substance or value.
It can just be about cleansing the palate. So many threads in R&P are about bashing or tearing down that being positive might be a nice corrective. Or intended as such.
I'd be perfectly happy to start a thread on the positive elements of Zoroastrianism or Baha'i or Sikhism even though I'm none of those things. In the case of Christianity the focus here tends to be solely on the negatives and I think this creates an unbalanced viewpoint. So efforts at correctives seem sensible and perhaps even needed. Unless we're to see this section purely as a course on deconversion and detachment from Christianity. (Which seems like it'd be more appropriate in Agnosticism/Atheism)
I see it's important to you to have a thread where people just say nice stuff about Christianity. (Exactly why, i'm not sure.) Maybe we should start a whole subforum devoted just to Christianity! Would that easy your mind?!? That subform could be dominated by Christians, sitting around slapping each other on the back talking about sweet, sweet jesus, how blessed they are, and how the rest of the world is going to be screwed when the Big Sky Daddy comes back. Would that be enough for you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Of course of course and that warning is appreciated. You do provide a certain utility as a jumping off point for my own thoughts, but I'll endeavor never to confuse that again for anything of substance or value.
But you can't help yourself, so it would appear. My post are like flames and you're a moth - you respond by instinct.
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