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^thought to take further?
christianity's hope is pushed in a (spiritual????) beyond AFTER physical death thereby leaving 2,000 odd years of speculation on a "return" of "christ".
nothing like re-incarnation (btw. usually frought with severe "karma" and other forgetfulness).
nothing like a memory and its "components" (as interdisciplinary science today could well puzzle together, imho).
thought? was there an experience going with it? anything one can safely speak about?
I haven't been posting much lately as work and home has been pretty busy. As I read through this thread, this particular post struck me.
Hope? Hope of what? If you are speaking of the eternal, well I would suggest two ways of looking at it:
1. If one does not believe in the eternal, then ALL religion is irrelevant and so is all the hope for a better afterlife. Your post is then pointless.
2. If one does believe in the eternal, I would submit that most religions bring promises of a better afterlife, so therefore all religions offer hope. This is not unique to Christianity. If individuals can find comfort or solace in whatever religion that suits them, then the hope of the Christian message is meaningless. Once again, then your post is pointless.
If this hope you speak of is in terms of THIS life, well let's consider this:
1. Religion is FULL as A-holes. Priests that diddle little kids and a church hierarchy that attempts to cover it up; frauds like Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard; ripoff artists like Jim Bakker, Robert Tilton and Benny Hinn; power brokers like Pat Robertson and James Dobson. This isn't just limited to Christianity. The phony Hindu yogis, gurus and swamis; rip-off NewAge groups and fake Native Americans; and of course no list of religious A-holes would be complete without mentioning everybody's favorite - THE JIHADISTS! Funny thing...all of these offer "hope".
2. Historically, religion as a whole, has not presented much in the way of hope in this life. Been mentioned many times, but one can never say it enough: Crusades, Inquistion, Witch-Trials, Sharia Law, the Counter-Reformation, Protestant vs Catholic wars and persecutions; Islam vs Hindu wars and persecutions; Shintos persecuting Buddhists...on and on and on. Yeah, religion is just a peach.
3. Being Native American, I am not impressed with the "hope" Christianity brought to our various nations. This hope so many Christians speak of has been nothing but a destructive force to so many cultures. Misery is its signature for those who are/were not of the faith that is offering this "hope". Look at the African continent as well for the good effects of the "hope". Good job Church and Mosque!
Bottomline, "hope" is highly overrated. I prefer to see results. Maybe people just need to quit being a-holes. Maybe people should just be allowed to live their lives the way they wish without there always being some a-hole or group of a-holes always telling them what they can and can't eat, wear, say, listen to, see, write, believe in or who they can or can't associate with or, yes, even love. As George Carlin once put it so well:
"I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work."
Because we have the ability to choose right from wrong, good from evil makes us subject to the desires of the flesh.
And unless there is an external influence over the desires of the flesh to curb the lusts of the flesh, I'm afraid we are without hope.
You can not live the life that you want because there will always be some one who wants part of you, be it a neighbor, the enemy,the government.
Evil is an ever present danger and nothing can conquer evil except good.
The life of Jesus was brought into form to demonstrate that only good can conquer over evil.
And Jesus said it Himself, there is none good except God.
Except God Himself conquers evil for us by His standard of Good, we are hopeless.
Looking at the trend the world is taking, can you see the leaders of countries, nations not desiring the good of the people, but only what good they can get out of it for them selves?
And the thought that we should just be left alone with no eternal Godly principle influences, give the world hope of Utopia?
Let me say this, that evil is not limited to any one group, but infiltrates all groups.
^thought to take further?
christianity's hope is pushed in a (spiritual????) beyond AFTER physical death thereby leaving 2,000 odd years of speculation on a "return" of "christ".
nothing like re-incarnation (btw. usually frought with severe "karma" and other forgetfulness).
nothing like a memory and its "components" (as interdisciplinary science today could well puzzle together, imho).
thought? was there an experience going with it? anything one can safely speak about?
Christianities hopes does lie in the hereafter, but not in having to wait to receive it.
The Lord's prayer states: "...thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven"...lets us know, that heaven is the same as being on earth by, "as is".
When one becomes a believer by faith, heaven is come down, and the believer is thus made a temporary heavenly guest in spirit, and at death, life is continued in spirit where it will never die again.
Hope then affords us the comfort and peace of spirit while we endure this journey of suffering in the flesh.
considering the suicide rates, low fertility rate, low generosity, etc atheism is arguably something of a maladaptive trait in a Darwinian sense. It's not uniquely maladaptive, but maladaptive all the same.
All together now: correlation does not imply causation. Which is lucky for believers too, I guess, because religion is inversely correlated with education level...
I'm aware of that, but if atheists are going to correlate religious states in the US to XYZ bad thing than it seems fair to correlate irreligious places to XYZ bad thing.
Besides the issues of suicide rates and fertility rates have been in studies by atheists. A highly positive view of atheist societies from the Council for Secular Humanism notes this.
The correlation doesn't imply causation, but it could imply something. One possibility is third or other factors result in a bit of both. Perhaps certain economic or social conditions make both atheism and suicide or atheism and childlessness more acceptable. For example a society that maximizes personal liberty could deem religion authoritarian and also view suicide mostly as a personal choice. On the negatives listed with religion it could be similar. Perhaps certain factors make both religion and teen-pregnancy or religion and violence more common without one really causing the other. One theory is that poverty and instability make religion more attractive to a person because churches provide stability and services for their members. Poverty and instability could also make violence and irresposible sex appealing.
For a variety of reasons I don't believe that. Highly secular/suicidal Belarus isn't exactly a libertarian place while several fairly religious societies are pretty safe. Although "instability/poverty" could explain the attraction to the most rigid forms of religiosity. Still the notion of a non-religion/religion factor being behind many of these things has some merit, but can be overplayed. To me atheism is inherently a lack or disbelief so its accomplishments touted are always going to tend to be about what atheists do less. (Divorce, go to jail, whatever) Christianity's accomplishments and criticism are going to be more about what it does or inspires one to do. (Go off drugs or alcohol; burn witches or heretics; build hospitals or gallows; fight for racial harmony or slavery; etc)
And that might be a tad rambling as, for me, it's late and I'm rather tired. Plus I hadn't intended on returning.
You're right. It was your error - because you were trolling. You wanted to find a vehicle to take some shots at atheist and atheism. But your dishonesty was exposed in the end. Let's both hope it doesn't happen again.
In defense of Thomas R....If he's trolling then he does in such a nice and polite way. Seems like a nice guy compared to a lot of the other "Christians" around here.
I'm aware of that, but if atheists are going to correlate religious states in the US to XYZ bad thing than it seems fair to correlate irreligious places to XYZ bad thing.
That's ok with me. What isn't ok is when you claim that atheism cause "[higher] suicide rates, low fertility rate, low generosity, etc", without supporting your claim with evidence other than correlation.
I don't claim that becoming a theist lowered your education level, you don't claim that atheism lowered my fertility rate. Unless you can prove it, of course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
The correlation doesn't imply causation, but it could imply something. One possibility is third or other factors result in a bit of both. Perhaps certain economic or social conditions make both atheism and suicide or atheism and childlessness more acceptable.
That's my guess. For example, atheism is common in Northern European countries, where people also suffer from winter depression. It is also more common in developed countries, which is correlated with higher suicide rates (because people are a lot less likely to die from lack of food or health care), lower fertility rates and higher education levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
To me atheism is inherently a lack or disbelief so its accomplishments touted are always going to tend to be about what atheists do less. (Divorce, go to jail, whatever) Christianity's accomplishments and criticism are going to be more about what it does or inspires one to do. (Go off drugs or alcohol; burn witches or heretics; build hospitals or gallows; fight for racial harmony or slavery; etc)
Uh, that's a pretty weird theory. Atheists don't do less things than other people, although they might do different things. And the examples of higher suicide rate and higher education level both contradict your theory.
That's ok with me. What isn't ok is when you claim that atheism cause "[higher] suicide rates, low fertility rate, low generosity, etc", without supporting your claim with evidence other than correlation.
I don't claim that becoming a theist lowered your education level, you don't claim that atheism lowered my fertility rate. Unless you can prove it, of course.
Fair point, and I might get to the rest of what you later.
I'm aware of that, but if atheists are going to correlate religious states in the US to XYZ bad thing than it seems fair to correlate irreligious places to XYZ bad thing.
Besides the issues of suicide rates and fertility rates have been in studies by atheists. A highly positive view of atheist societies from the Council for Secular Humanism notes this.
The correlation doesn't imply causation, but it could imply something. One possibility is third or other factors result in a bit of both. Perhaps certain economic or social conditions make both atheism and suicide or atheism and childlessness more acceptable. For example a society that maximizes personal liberty could deem religion authoritarian and also view suicide mostly as a personal choice. On the negatives listed with religion it could be similar. Perhaps certain factors make both religion and teen-pregnancy or religion and violence more common without one really causing the other. One theory is that poverty and instability make religion more attractive to a person because churches provide stability and services for their members. Poverty and instability could also make violence and irresposible sex appealing.
For a variety of reasons I don't believe that. Highly secular/suicidal Belarus isn't exactly a libertarian place while several fairly religious societies are pretty safe. Although "instability/poverty" could explain the attraction to the most rigid forms of religiosity. Still the notion of a non-religion/religion factor being behind many of these things has some merit, but can be overplayed. To me atheism is inherently a lack or disbelief so its accomplishments touted are always going to tend to be about what atheists do less. (Divorce, go to jail, whatever) Christianity's accomplishments and criticism are going to be more about what it does or inspires one to do. (Go off drugs or alcohol; burn witches or heretics; build hospitals or gallows; fight for racial harmony or slavery; etc)
And that might be a tad rambling as, for me, it's late and I'm rather tired. Plus I hadn't intended on returning.
By me, a very good none biased assessment of either or,even though I know your stance.
I am not quite as intelligent as you when it comes to eloquently explaining thoughts, but I feel that I have a good common sense approach mingled with faith in God to perform in behalf of His own creation.
Religion is an attempt to reach a god, gods or the God.
What is common to all of them is humanities soul.
The soul of humanity is what needs to be saved, not the body, but it's spirit.
Its who we are, by name, by character that is what is to be saved.
Every one regardless of religious or non religious belief is bound by the same body of flesh, subjected to the same conditions of the lusts of the flesh.
What makes the difference, is the moral fiber expressed outwardly in spite of the conditions of the flesh, for or against what is good.
Therefore, there can be good moral fiber demonstrated in both non believers as well as believers as a desire.
What an individual ought to do is to search out, his or hers, the truth to the best of their knowledge, with whatever resources are available at the time, and not forgetting that everyone is doing the same, so as to not discriminate.
Blessings, AJ
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