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No, I don't think 'some message' of Christ is a good thing. I think a false gospel is about as bad as it gets. And acording to the OP, he stated that 'no confession saves us' and that is absolutely contrary to Romans
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
The bible says that many will fall away from the faith and be led astray. I don't think that's going to come from someone saying 'Reject Christ and get to Heaven', it's going to come from folks that preach a gospel that has enough truth to 'sound good', but enough false doctrine to be dead wrong.
I was just about to say the same thing Alpha. I think a false message is worse than no message at all. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 "For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to right teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever they want to hear. They will reject the truth and follow strange myths".
No, I don't think 'some message' of Christ is a good thing. I think a false gospel is about as bad as it gets. And acording to the OP, he stated that 'no confession saves us' and that is absolutely contrary to Romans
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Not arguing with you but from what I've read their stance is not that confession and repenting is not necessary, but that it alone will not save you. You need to live your life as Jesus did and hold true to your beliefs. I don't know why the OP posted that, unless I misunderstood what I read. I don't actually think they are preaching false doctrine, just their own interpretation of the bible...isn't that what all the denominations of Christianity do?
I personally believe that the only way to heaven is through a belief in Jesus Christ while we are living/alive, and through our belief in Him we are made new and will want to live like Jesus because we are saved, not that doing good or just following Jesus' teachings will make us saved.
Now, for a little gas on the fire ... I do remember hearing taught by some preacher some time in my past at some church that non-believers will go to hell. And while in hell, they will have plenty of time to reflect on their lives and come to the knowledge of who Jesus is... and then at the time of a "second judgement(?)", they will have the opportunity to confess they believe in Jesus and enter heaven. Those that sill refuse to acknowledge Him will just cease to exist. (I think that's how it went, anyway). Now, mind you, this is from a somewhat vague recollection of something I heard approx. 20-25 yrs ago. I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now (especially after lots of study), but is this what Christian Universalism is attempting to teach?
Since it has been brought up here, I did examine some of the websites teaching Christian universalism and they sounded reasonable with their exegesis of certain words like "eternal" etc. But then when you also look at the websites refuting universalism, you begin to see a different picture. (look at what carm.org/universalism says, for example.) In general, I think when you look at the "whole" of scripture and don't just isolate verses, you can't make a justifiable case for Christian universalism.
Yes, this doctrine does have appeal because no one likes the idea of hell. I don't. But I just can't reconcile universalism with the WHOLE message of scripture.
On another note, why is this thread sticky and do we all have the ability to make our threads sticky?
I don't know why it's sticky, but I thought only moderators had the ability to make a thread sticky. I appears jeff is a moderator (correct me if I'm wrong) and made his own thread sticky to keep it at the top. I think for us laypeople, we would need to ask a moderator to make a thread we wanted to start sticky.
Since it has been brought up here, I did examine some of the websites teaching Christian universalism and they sounded reasonable with their exegesis of certain words like "eternal" etc. But then when you also look at the websites refuting universalism, you begin to see a different picture. (look at what carm.org says, for example.) In general, I think when you look at the "whole" of scripture and don't just isolate verses, you can't make a justifiable case for Christian universalism.
Yes, this doctrine does have appeal because no one likes the idea of hell. I don't. But I just can't reconcile universalism with the WHOLE message of scripture.
I'm not arguing that. But if you look at Catholic sites vs. fundementalist sites the same can be said. As well as if you look at Mormon sites vs. Johova Witness sites. Lutherine sites vs. Greek Orthodox sites again the same thing. So all I'm saying is that they have interpreted the bible their way the same as other denominations.
I also agree with you that I don't think it was ever intended to be interpreted line by line but all the denominations you can look up have done this. And you will always find another site refuting it...so I don't think this is any different.
I'm not arguing that. But if you look at Catholic sites vs. fundementalist sites the same can be said. As well as if you look at Mormon sites vs. Johova Witness sites. Lutherine sites vs. Greek Orthodox sites again the same thing. So all I'm saying is that they have interpreted the bible their way the same as other denominations.
I also agree with you that I don't think it was ever intended to be interpreted line by line but all the denominations you can look up have done this. And you will always find another site refuting it...so I don't think this is any different.
Yes, this is true. My point is that I don't feel Christian Universalism is presenting the whole picture in their arguments in favor of this doctrine. At least, from the websites I looked at...and then those against it. And again, I think there are just too many verses that have to be twisted and "re-interpreted" to support the universalist doctrine in order to make it "work."
I'm not arguing that. But if you look at Catholic sites vs. fundementalist sites the same can be said. As well as if you look at Mormon sites vs. Johova Witness sites. Lutherine sites vs. Greek Orthodox sites again the same thing. So all I'm saying is that they have interpreted the bible their way the same as other denominations.
I also agree with you that I don't think it was ever intended to be interpreted line by line but all the denominations you can look up have done this. And you will always find another site refuting it...so I don't think this is any different.
Of course there will be advocates on both sides of every argument, but they can not all be right. There's sites that argue 9/11 conspiracy, bigfoot, the lunar landing was faked, etc, but that doesn't mean those sites are accurate.
On the sticky thing, yes I'm a mod, and I asked if I could make my thread sticky just for the night, then make it un-sticky in the morning. I was told it was okay as far as the senior mod knew, but it's still possible that I may get chastised for doing so. FYI!
Well this has certainly generated some interesting responses. Although, I must say that alot of the posts here are exactly what I thought they would be...doubters who haven't bothered to search it for themselves and just regurgitate what has always been spoon-fed to them by their Hell-loving pastor.
I should probably let everyone know that this belief is relatively new to me. I was raised a Christian in the non-denominational, Word of Faith vein. Coming into this new belief system didnt come easy, and didn't come without doing extensive research, study, and prayer. So, to those posters who so snidely dismiss me and my "itchy-ears" belief as flat out wrong: do your research. Be careful who and what you are ridiculing. I base my beliefs on no other than the Word of God, and take offense to having God's Word thrown out the window by those who haven't bothered to look at it themselves.
Because I wanted to be sure of what I believed, I have not only read the pro-Universalist material, but also TONS of anti as well. I am well aquainted with CARM. I have come to the conclusion that traditional Christianity stretches just as far as Universalists are accused of doing when trying to prove their beliefs. Anyone on this forum can take any part of the Bible and try to make it say what they want. The difference is, I have studied the Bible in the original Greek and Hebrew, and you cannot tell me that traditional Christianity has got it right. They don't. Period. There are too many holes in it. But...Universalism? It connects the dots.
I do believe in confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart that Jesus is the Son of God. What I think that so many get confused about is this: JESUS DIED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. Traditional Christianity says that Jesus failed. Most of the World has not accepted Him, and therefore God will eternally reject them. But doesnt God tell us to forgive 70 x's 7? To forgive, even if the wrongdoer hasn't asked for it? That's God's commandment to us, but He Himself will not forgive unless asked, and will hold an eternal punishment on the sinner?
Every Christian will admit that God WANTS everyone to be saved, but that that wont happen. Do they read their entire Bible? They are fighting the Word of God to uphold a pagan tradition of eternal torment. Here's some food for thought:
Rom. 14:11 "For it is WRITTEN [in Isaiah 45:23], AS I LIVE, SAITH THE LORD [does this sound like maybe He really MEANS IT?] EVERY KNEE SHALL [is that word strong enough for you, or do you think 'shall' also means 'maybe' or 'possibly'? And does 'EVERY' maybe mean just a 'few'?] BOW TO ME, and EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS GOD"!
Here's Isaiah 43..."Look unto me, and be ye SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH; for I am GOD, AND THERE IS NONE ELSE. I HAVE WORN BY MYSELF, THE WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SHALL NOT [what part of the word 'NOT' don't you understand?] ...SHALL NOT RETURN, THAT UNTO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR"!!!
Now then, what is the result of anything that God "says"? Turn over one chapter to Isaiah 46 and the last half of verse 11:
"...I have SPOKEN IT, I WILL BRING IT TO PASS; I have PROPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT!"
In fact, back in verse ten God strongly affirms that,
"My counsel SHALL STAND, and I WILL do ALL MY MY PLEASURE"!!
People blaspheme when they try to turn the very WILL of God into a 'weak unattainable wish'! I would be very careful about insinuating that God's will will never be accomplished!
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who WILL have ALL men to be SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim. 2:4)!
Now, don't start a lecture about misusing the Word of God! Either you believe every word of God, or you do not. Do you believe "WHAT IS WRITTEN?"
The last part of I Cor. 12:3 states,
"...no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit."
We read in in Phil. 2:10-11 and Rom. 14:11, and Isaiah 45:23 that EVERYONE WILL BOW AND CONFESS GOD and I Cor. 12:3 says
It's not hard to believe these verses, but the carnal mind will fight these verses all day long! They are properly translated and they are simple to understand. One really has to do a hatchet job on these Words of God to get to to say something other than way they say.
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Universalism?
