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Too bad we don't have an emoticon for a big sigh. Please insert one here.
You can argue the definitions of these words and exegete them all day long, but if you look at the context of how the whole of scripture and the gospel is presented, you will not see evidence of a "second chance." beyond death.
Too bad we don't have an emoticon for a big sigh. Please insert one here.
You can argue the definitions of these words and exegete them all day long, but if you look at the context of how the whole of scripture and the gospel is presented, you will not see evidence of a "second chance." beyond death.
LOL @ your emoticon comment. Believe me, I agree.
I respectfully disagree, of course. I in fact see huge evidence of a "second chance" beyond death, throughout both the NT and the OT. The theme of ultimate redemption is very prevalent...
2 Sam 14:14..."For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him."
I respectfully disagree, of course. I in fact see huge evidence of a "second chance" beyond death, throughout both the NT and the OT. The theme of ultimate redemption is very prevalent...
2 Sam 14:14..."For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him."
Yes, and that means God has devised is Jesus. But without Him, God's banished are expelled from him.
Jeff, I love you and I'm not trying to offend you, but this theology doesn't line up, man. Think about it...the parables of the sheep and goats, the narrow way vs. the wide way, the servants being cast out 'where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth', etc....
Understand this, and this is from my heart, in my flesh I wish you were right. I wish there was no Hell. I wish everyone does wind up in Heaven. I wish there was a 'second chance' or a 'do over'....but when you look at the message of the Bible as a whole, that just doesn't line up. There are serious consequences to rejecting God. And they are eternal.
The issues you brought up regarding those in other nations etc were covered in another thread. I can't remember the title, but if you want to start a thread regarding that, we can discuss it.
I respectfully disagree, of course. I in fact see huge evidence of a "second chance" beyond death, throughout both the NT and the OT. The theme of ultimate redemption is very prevalent...
2 Sam 14:14..."For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him."
I don't have my Bible with me right now to look up the context of the scripture you quoted in 2 Sam 14. I would almost lay odds, though, that when I do look it up and I will, that I do not see it the way you do- as evidence of a second chance beyond the grave. I agree that God is the God of second chances, and thirds, .....etc. but just not beyond the grave.
In the absence of "sigh" emoticons, I think I'm going to have to bow out of this discussion because you have managed to not convince me, but to "wear me out" with it. I just don't think there's much "fresh" to say about the subject.
Yes, and that means God has devised is Jesus. But without Him, God's banished are expelled from him.
Jeff, I love you and I'm not trying to offend you, but this theology doesn't line up, man. Think about it...the parables of the sheep and goats, the narrow way vs. the wide way, the servants being cast out 'where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth', etc....
Understand this, and this is from my heart, in my flesh I wish you were right. I wish there was no Hell. I wish everyone does wind up in Heaven. I wish there was a 'second chance' or a 'do over'....but when you look at the message of the Bible as a whole, that just doesn't line up. There are serious consequences to rejecting God. And they are eternal.
The issues you brought up regarding those in other nations etc were covered in another thread. I can't remember the title, but if you want to start a thread regarding that, we can discuss it.
I agree with you Alpha, I hate to think of people in hell forever but there is no second chance according to the Bible.
Jeff I believe you are sincere in what you believe as I am so maybe should just agree to disagree on this subject.
Alpha...thanks for your post. I appreciate your tone, even if you disagree with me. Thanks to everyone else too.
I have to say that yes, it does line up with the Word. A exegetal study will prove this out.
Think about it. You, a human, a fallable being, wants with all your heart for hell to not be real.
Now God, who is the embodiment of Love, does not desire the same thing? But wait, His Word says that He DOES want all to come to Him. Does this mean that God wants something He can't have? But wait, that also goes against Scripture...God will do all His pleasure. God is all powerful.
Okay...so if Hell is real and eternal, then it is God's pleasure for most of His Creation to go there? No, we already know that's not true. How then do most Christians believe in a God who is all-powerful, yet cannot save His own Creation? Oh, right, mankind has free will.
Extra! Extra! Free Will Defeats God Almighty! Satan declared winner in "Battle for Human Souls" by a landslide!
Oh, Jeff, you are tempting me with the "alls" thing, but I just can't go there or we will still be arguing when Jesus comes back!
LOL. Yes, I've already concluded that we are all pretty much stuck in our respective beliefs. In my defense, I was raised in the traditional vein of Christianity, and came to my current belief by lots of prayer and study.
Ballou was a Christian Universalist. I have no idea why Universalists became one with the Unitarians, because a true CU holds fast to the Word, while Unitarians do not. No offense meant here, but I do not believe the Unitarian Church, which today is a consolidation of The American Unitarian Association and Universalist Church of America, can accurately be called a "church," if by that we mean an assembly that believes in salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
I wasn't trying to argue that UU's are Christians, and I don't consider myself a Christian. Sorry if you got that impression. I realize that UU is decended from Christian Universalists (and Unitarians) but that we are no longer a Christian denomination. The two denominations in America became less Christian through time and eventually merged in the mid-1900's. What I was really wondering is whether the Universalists that we consider our forebears (notably Ballou) are also your forebears too, or whether American Universalism had already split from your denomination earlier than that.
Here is a story about Ballou that I have always liked:
Source = Tufts Magazine Online
In one story, the itinerant preacher Hosea Ballou-namesake and great-uncle of the Tufts president and Universalism's first important theologian-is spending the night at a farmhouse. The farmer worries aloud to Ballou that his son, a drinker and ladies' man, will burn in hell for his transgressions. Ballou suggests they go outside and build a big log fire, and when the young man comes home from his carousing, ambush him and throw him into it. Shocked, the farmer refuses: "He's my son, and I love him!" To which Ballou retorts, "If you, a human and imperfect father, love your son so much that you wouldn't throw him in a fire, how can you believe that God, the perfect father, would do such a thing!"
I wasn't trying to argue that UU's are Christians, and I don't consider myself a Christian. Sorry if you got that impression. I realize that UU is decended from Christian Universalists (and Unitarians) but that we are no longer a Christian denomination. The two denominations in America became less Christian through time and eventually merged in the mid-1900's. What I was really wondering is whether the Universalists that we consider our forebears (notably Ballou) are also your forebears too, or whether American Universalism had already split from your denomination earlier than that.
Here is a story about Ballou that I have always liked:
Source = Tufts Magazine Online
In one story, the itinerant preacher Hosea Ballou-namesake and great-uncle of the Tufts president and Universalism's first important theologian-is spending the night at a farmhouse. The farmer worries aloud to Ballou that his son, a drinker and ladies' man, will burn in hell for his transgressions. Ballou suggests they go outside and build a big log fire, and when the young man comes home from his carousing, ambush him and throw him into it. Shocked, the farmer refuses: "He's my son, and I love him!" To which Ballou retorts, "If you, a human and imperfect father, love your son so much that you wouldn't throw him in a fire, how can you believe that God, the perfect father, would do such a thing!"
Love the story about Ballou!
In answer to your question, there really isn't a coherent Universalist denom at this time, so I can only speak for myself. I will say I have seen him frequently on pro-Universalist sites, so my answer would be a yes, I think.
I do know some things about Universalism throughout history, but am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.
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Where IS that sigh emoticon?????
with it. I just don't think there's much "fresh" to say about the subject.
Thanks to everyone else too.
, but I just can't go there or we will still be arguing when Jesus comes back!
