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The link is not to Bay Terrace in Queens, but Central Park South in Manhattan, ie, just about the most expensive area in NYC. A few blocks from there, you can indeed get a smallish 1 bdrm co-op for half that price - but the monthly maintenance fees (which inclulde taxes) would likely be >50% higher than condo fees+taxes for the same condo in Portland. Except on some top prime blocks in Manhattan where billionaires live, the purchase price of a co-op in NYC is in fact lower than the purchase price of a condo in all other largest cities in the US. If I were to sell my condo in a an excellent part of Boston, and buy the same-sized co-op in an excellent part of Manhattan, I would have about 1/4 of the money left over from the sale of the Boston condo - but I would be paying about 3.5 times in monthly condo fees in NYC what I pay in Boston.
NYC co-ops are something between owning and renting. You buy a share of a sort of real estate company, and you sort of lease your unit from that "sort of company" as long as you own your share of that "sort of company". What you pay to the company per month (for maintenance and taxes) is still about a half of what you would be paying in rent. I think co-op is a worse financial deal than a condo (because monthly co-op dues are higher to start with and go up more with inflation - same issue as rents, while the purchase price of a co-op in NYC in fact does NOT appreciate much. The prices of small co-ops in NYC are about the same as they have been in 2011. They did not drop tremendously during the nationwide 2008/10 housing crash, and they did not come up too much after it. Except for the highest priced property in NYC, I don't think prices of co-ops swing tremendously, including grow tremendously. At least for the smallest properties (something that a solo retiree might consider), from the position of, say, someone who does not care too much about +/-$30k, the growth in price of a co-op unit between $0 and $30k in 10 years does not seem like any appreciation - and that is what good small co-ops in Midtown East in Manhattan "grew" in price since 2011).
Oh, sorry, I actually looked up Bay Terrace on Zillow. And, yes, I realize Manhattan and Coop's are insanely different (and I was just comparing the unit without consideration of the fees).
With HOA's and Taxes the same holds true within Portland. You will pay less for a unit depending on the HOA's and Taxes on a similar unit (inverse relationship between price and those liabilities).
In some cases you are signing up for an open ended liability.
In 2014, it made sense to own my home outright. Stock market had bounced back from 2008. I am single and live in an expensive area, and if I lost the good job that I had (a strong possibility), I would have been scrambling with difficulty to find another equivalent job in the same area. I also didn't have a large company pension to rely on. Debt free then and now. Not having a mortgage meant I could early retire and live well on my savings and eventually SS and a tiny pension. I do have 2 heirs.
[QUOTE The prices of small co-ops in NYC are about the same as they have been in 2011.
In Manhattan?
What price point are you seeing? Say 300 to 350 square feet.[/quote]
Nothing that small
We had a total of 9 one and two bedrooms in the 200 Central Park south building ….they were all different sizes and prices. But you can see a selection here .
They have seen a lot of appreciation over the 13 years we had them ..we have been selling them over those 13 years as tenants took buy out offers from us .
We sold the last of them two years ago . We dumped the last two to an investor group since the tenants were firm on not taking a lease buyout
In Manhattan?
What price point are you seeing? Say 300 to 350 square feet.
You are addressing a different poster, but I said the same thing as the other poster (at least about small properties that I have been following). Yes, I was talking specifically about 300-350 sq ft studios in large Midtown East doorman scrapers towards the East River.
For comparison, those were going for around $125-150k in the year 2000 (when I bought my 350 sq ft Boston condo for $147k). The Manhattan co-ops I am talking about did appreciate in the huge housing bubble of 2000-early 2008, and were going for $240-300k at the peak of that bubble (when my condo in Boston also appreciated to about $300k). With the housing market crash 2008, the prices of those units in Manhattan did not really change much, ie, they only shifted more towards the $240k end of the range, shifting back predominantly towards $300k in 2011. In 2019 just before covid, they were about $290-330k, ie, without very substantial change from 2011. During covid, they drifted down a bit to $250-300k range, and are now in the $250-330k range. Meanwhile, my Boston condo is worth about $480k right now.
Many times the coop appears cheaper in asking price …but and it is a big but , the rest of your apartment equity is held by the buildings bank and paid the through a higher maintenance charge .
As it gets paid down it transfers over the equity to the value of the apartment .
So when buying a coop it is important to check on the building mortgage and see what the rest of the apartment equity may be .
When we bought where my ex lives as an investment back in 1987 we paid about 75k ..
however the apartments real value also included the portion the building held in their mortgage so our depreciation we took because it was an investment was on 104k that building was a condo instead of a coop it would have cost in the area of 104.
Today that coop is about 275k . With almost 700 in maintenance a month .
Our manhattan coops soared …appreciation blew away our single family home we owned in queens.
Ny has special projects like coop city , parkchester condos , rochdale village , etc that are part of the affordable housing programs . They can be a lot cheaper but they are areas I would never choose to live
A two bedroom 2 bath coop across the street from us is 450-475k if renovated and about 1400 a month maintenance…it does include a pool.
Btw, Parkchester Condo (South and North) is not a part of any kind of affordable housing program. Those are two normal condo associations, no "programs" involved, and about 3/4 of the condos are rented out for a market rent, pretty high for the Bronx (the remaining 1/4 are owner occupied). At this point about half of the units are owned by Parkchester Preservation, a division of Olshan Properties, that bought most of Parkchester in 1998, refurbished it, and still functions as the maintenance company (as well as the largest condo owner/landlord) in the two condo complexes. Btw, I bought my Parkchester condo from Parkchester Preservation, and all other condo owners in two complexes, besides Parkchester Preservation (a private real estate company), are private owners like me, who mostly rent out their units (as I did until 3 years ago, when I decided to use it for myself). Both Parkchester Condo complexes are 100% privately owned, no part of it is public housing, no "programs". We pay very low taxes on account of the tax abatement that Parkchester Preservation obtained for urban renewal, and the purchase prices of Parkchester condos are low because of the location in the middle of the Bronx, but there are no affordable housing programs involved. The lowest rent for 1 bedroom unit listed right now is $1,600 from Parkchester Preservation, and $1,475 from a private owner in Parkchester - what "affordable housing programs"?! :-).
Also, I would not live in Parkchester either, but I would (and do) spend a week or so there every month I am on the East Coast (about 60 days per year). It is not world class, but it is adequately safe for my purposes of having a cheap crashpad in NYC. If I ever decide to move to NYC more substantially, I'd get rid of Parkchester and buy in Manhattan (which is why I have been following prices of co-ops in Midtown East) - but I won't do that while my primary home is in Boston.
Btw, Parkchester Condo (South and North) is not a part of any kind of affordable housing program. Those are two normal condo associations, no "programs" involved, and about 3/4 of the condos are rented out for a market rent, pretty high for the Bronx (the remaining 1/4 are owner occupied). At this point about half of the units are owned by Parkchester Preservation, a division of Olshan Properties, that bought most of Parkchester in 1998, refurbished it, and still functions as the maintenance company (as well as the largest condo owner/landlord) in the two condo complexes. Btw, I bought my Parkchester condo from Parkchester Preservation, and all other condo owners in two complexes, besides Parkchester Preservation, are private owners like me, who mostly rent out their units (as I did until 3 years ago, when I decided to use it for myself). Both Parkchester Condo complexes are 100% privately owned, no part of it is public housing, no "programs". We pay very low taxes on account of the tax abatement that Parkchester Preservation obtained for urban renewal, and the purchase prices of Parkchester condos are low because of the location in the middle of the Bronx, but there are no affordable housing programs involved. The lowest rent for 1 bedroom unit listed right now is $1,600 from Parkchester Preservation, and $1,475 from a private owner in Parkchester - what "affordable housing programs"?! :-).
According to its history
“The community was designed to be a middle-class city of its own, with shops including the first satellite Macy’s store, which is still there today. “Most new construction at that time was for the wealthy,” Ultan says. “Met Life built Parkchester as an experiment in housing for the middle class.”
“The apartments rented for about $12 per room per month. They were targeted at moderate-income families, with incomes of $1,800 to $4,500 a year. The rents were slightly above those of public housing, but well below market-rate housing in surrounding neighborhoods.”
“The community was designed to be a middle-class city of its own, with shops including the first satellite Macy’s store, which is still there today. “Most new construction at that time was for the wealthy,” Ultan says. “Met Life built Parkchester as an experiment in housing for the middle class.”
The apartments rented for about $12 per room per month. They were targeted at moderate-income families, with incomes of $1,800 to $4,500 a year. The rents were slightly above those of public housing, but well below market-rate housing in surrounding neighborhoods.
That was in 1940 :-). And even at that time the complex was privately owned (by Met Life), not an affordable housing program. Parkchester is fairly unusual, though. When it was built, and for the subsequent 25 years or so, it resembled "experimental housing for the middle class" in Central Europe (where such housing still thrives). For the next 25 years, it fell through the cracks of real estate speculation, into complete urban blight. Olshan Properties probably had an idea of getting it back to resemble what it was circa 1940-1965 - but now it does not resemble anything in NYC (or possibly anywhere) really. The two condo associations have private security, and there is an effort to screen out crime from the complex. It is also becoming like the permanent Ellis Island for immigrants from Bangladesh. Those are two main distinguishing features of the condo complex right now (I mean, distinguishing from the rest of the Bronx :-), not an affordable housing program.
I agree. It becomes more of a personal thing. One of my biggest fears about renting a house is I would never know when the owner will want the house back, maybe to rent to one of their kids or inlaws. Or maybe jack up the rent where I can no longer comfortably afford it. I have no intention of having to move at the whim of a landlord when I'm in my 70s or 80s. I've never liked living in an apartment complex.
As long as I pay my property taxes and small mortgage which is less than renting, I'm good.
Many rents here have almost doubled now in the last 2-3 years, mostly with houses. Renting here used to be inexpensive.
On our local NextDoor, there is an 84 year old widow who has rented a house for 25 years, and her landlord gave her a 30-day notice to vacate by 12/31/2021.
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