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Guns don't kill people, they just make killing people a whole lot easier.
Exactly!
I know, I've a very unpopular opinion about guns in this country, it's like advocating universal health care. People just refuse to change, even if it's obvious that the changes are for the best.
Having said that, I do believe that guns do not belong in a civilized society. The times when every citizen needed a gun for self-defence because of lack of police or for whatever other reason are long gone. America, well every society, would be much better off without guns. Guns must be gone.
The problem is, for so many people letting go of the guns means the end of the world!
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 06-04-2012 at 01:56 PM..
True, but stricter gun laws will make a huge difference.
The most important thing, though, is to change general populace' perception about guns. So far, general public's opinion about guns in the US varies from being neutral (usefull tool for self-defence) to a positive one (a cute little toy for grown-ups to play with)
Guns should be viewed as negatively, as, say, hard drugs: They're made for destruction, there is no other use of them. In addition, it seems that people are as much addicted to their guns as to hard drugs, and would never give them up. I don't know why guns have so much power over some people, why so many people in this country are so addicted to guns.
I don't view guns as solely a tool of destruction. I look at it this way. If only the psychopaths, sociopaths, and criminals have access to guns(by illegal means), then how do people who are law-abiding citizens defend themselves(by legal means)?
Example: In Russia, the average citizen can't have a handgun or any legitimate firearm. Guess what? Russia has a murder rate 3 to 4 times higher than the USA. Moscow and St. Petersburg are among the most dangerous(possible THE MOST) dangerous cities in the industrialized world. And people find other ways to kill. Russia also has a severe Neo-Nazi problem, worse than Germany from what I hear. Foreign students have been stomped, kicked, stabbed and beaten to death in Russia. Those Neo-Nazis don't care about the law, and the police do very little about it.
Banning guns doesn't always mean a safer society. It just gives an illusion. People will find ways to kill.
I know, I've a very unpopular opinion about guns in this country, it's like advocating universal health care. People just refuse to change, even if it's obvious that the changes are for the best.
People will obviously see things differently, including what is 'best'. You don't like guns. I don't like crime. I'm of the belief that banning guns will do little to curtail crime. The UK has some of the toughest gun laws around, yet has plenty of crime.
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Having said that, I do believe that guns do not belong in a civilized society.
Lots of things other things don't belong in my view of civilized society--junkies, gangs, illegal aliens, drunk drivers, locks on doors. If society were truly civilized we wouldn't have police, prisons, metal detectors at airports, etc.
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The times when every citizen needed a gun for self-defence because of lack of police or for whatever other reason are long gone. America, well every society, would be much better off without guns. Guns must be gone.
Not all do need/want protection. Some people are content believing police will get there in time and have everything under control. I know it takes a while for police to get to where ever I am at. 'Police..minutes away when seconds count.' I personally don't like being dependent on other people, I am not their priority in life. Yes, the military does a good job protecting me from armies, but the police can't protect me from every junkie or crazy person, and there are plenty of them. The residents in the UK that want to defend themselves have taken to purchasing baseball bats in high numbers due to the amount of crime. Nothing like bringing a bat to a gunfight.
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The problem is, for so many people letting go of the guns means the end of the world!
Kind of. Seems we live in different worlds with different interests. It would more or less end my primary hobbies and require me to take up some other life that really has no appeal to me. I'm not in the NRA or a collector or even 'right wing nutty whack job'.
I don't view guns as solely a tool of destruction. I look at it this way. If only the psychopaths, sociopaths, and criminals have access to guns(by illegal means), then how do people who are law-abiding citizens defend themselves(by legal means)?
Example: In Russia, the average citizen can't have a handgun or any legitimate firearm. Guess what? Russia has a murder rate 3 to 4 times higher than the USA. Moscow and St. Petersburg are among the most dangerous(possible THE MOST) dangerous cities in the industrialized world. And people find other ways to kill. Russia also has a severe Neo-Nazi problem, worse than Germany from what I hear. Foreign students have been stomped, kicked, stabbed and beaten to death in Russia. Those Neo-Nazis don't care about the law, and the police do very little about it.
Banning guns doesn't always mean a safer society. It just gives an illusion. People will find ways to kill.
Russia is an extreme example. Russia is not a first world country, so you can't compare Russia with the US. Russia can't even be called a democratic country. Apples and oranges.
Why don't you compare the US with other first world country like Norway, Germany, France and pretty much any other European Union country, as well as with Canada, Australia or New Zealand?
The problem with the US is that the US is a very affluent democratic society with violent crime rate of a third world country. I see it as an anomaly comparing with other first world countries. All other first world countries have much lower violent crime rates and at the same time much stricter gun control laws. It obviously works.
Like other poster said, guns make killing much easier, and this is exactly what makes guns so dangerous, doesn't matter if you are a law abiding citizen or not. The level of gun-related crime is exactly what differentiates the US from other first world countries with much stricter gun control. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to understand that.
Let's put it this way: Mass gun ownership disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. It's a huge burden on society with unnecessary suffering and pain. It's a too high price to pay for somebody's "freedom" to go to a gun store to buy fifteenth semi-automatic to add to their collection.
Last edited by movingwiththewind; 06-04-2012 at 05:09 PM..
Russia is an extreme example. Russia is not a first world country, so you can't compare Russia with the US. Russia can't even be called a democratic country. Apples and oranges.
Why don't you compare the US with other first world country like Norway, Germany, France and pretty much any other European Union country, as well as with Canada, Australia or New Zealand?
The problem with the US is that the US is a very affluent democratic society with violent crime rate of a third world country. I see it as an anomaly comparing with other first world countries. All other first world countries have much lower violent crime rates and at the same time much stricter gun control laws. It obviously works.
Like other poster said, guns make killing much easier, and this is exactly what makes guns so dangerous, doesn't matter if you are a law abiding citizen or not. The level of gun-related crime is exactly what differentiates the US from other first world countries with much stricter gun control. One does not have to be a rocket scientist to understand that.
Let's put it this way: Mass gun ownership disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. It's a huge burden on society with unnecessary suffering and pain. It's a too high price to pay for somebody's "freedom" to go to a gun store to buy fifteenth semi-automatic to add to their collection.
Guns might make killing easier, but banning them won't stop criminals from owning them, as criminals don't care.
As for the USA, this nation doesn't have the murder rate of a third world nation. It might be higher than some nations, but at less than 5 murders per 100,000, that is hardly a third world murder rate. The USA also has more issues with gangs committing so many murders. Sure, guns make it easier, but this also proves my point of PEOPLE killing people. If you look at states like Vermont and Wyoming, those states have very permissive gun laws, and low crime rates, among the lowest in the nation. If you are a law-abiding citizen with a gun, then what is the harm of YOU owning a gun? Do you expect law-abiding citizens to go on killing sprees?
Guns might make killing easier, but banning them won't stop criminals from owning them, as criminals don't care.
As for the USA, this nation doesn't have the murder rate of a third world nation. It might be higher than some nations, but at less than 5 murders per 100,000, that is hardly a third world murder rate. The USA also has more issues with gangs committing so many murders. Sure, guns make it easier, but this also proves my point of PEOPLE killing people. If you look at states like Vermont and Wyoming, those states have very permissive gun laws, and low crime rates, among the lowest in the nation. If you are a law-abiding citizen with a gun, then what is the harm of YOU owning a gun? Do you expect law-abiding citizens to go on killing sprees?
Both states also have largely rural, relatively small populations.
What Movingwiththewind fails to recognize, although you bring up some very good points, is that those other first world nations you listed do not have the history of the USA. Nor do they have thousands of miles of border with other countries, making it easy to smuggle in ANYTHING. You say you can't compare USA to Russia, and I say you can't compare USA to Norway (and other European countries). Why? Because Norway did not have millions of slaves brought in from Africa centuries ago and then suddenly freed hundreds of years later left to deal with their new found freedom and the poverty and prejudice that came with that. Norway does not deal with millions of illegal immigrants sneaking over their border, bringing with them poverty and raising generations of people in poor areas who turn to gangs for protection and a misguided sense of belonging. The sole reason America is perceived as being violent compared to Europe is because of the gang problem. That's it. These mass murders, like what happened in Seattle last week, happen in every country in the world, from Canada to Germany. You hear about these rare, isolated events everywhere. And it's funny you mention Norway, because didn't one man in Norway kill over 80 people with explosives and automatic weapons last year? Isolated incident, just like this Seattle shooting. Many of those Scandinavian countries allow you to own rifles and other firearms. Their rate of murder is not as high. Why? Because they don't have the gang culture we have.
You're the one comparing apples and oranges. It's really convenient to blame the gun problem. But that's not the root. The root, as others have said, is people, gangs, psychopaths, and poverty. Let's get to the root of the problem and not make bull**** legislation like San Francisco and New York are constantly doing (ex: banning soft drinks in restaurants above 16oz to fight obesity... as if someone won't order a refill. Banning toys from happy meals as if parents aren't in control of their child's diet. It's a bunch of time-wasting BS). It's been proven time and time again that banning guns is ineffective in stopping gun violence in America. I don't know how this can be clearer to people who see a future with banned guns through rose tint glasses.
I live in Chicago. We have the strictest gun laws of any big city in this nation. Illinois as state has the strictest gun laws of any state in the nation. And there have been over 200 murders here this year so far. You think the gangsters give a damn about the legality of guns? Or anything? Of course not. The law doesn't factor into their minds.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong if you think banning guns will solve the problem. And I believe a vast majority of this "ban guns" talk comes from an emotional place, and not a logical one. I think your heart is in the right place, and I wish it was as simple and worked as you think it does, but that's just not the reality.
In my opinion, my beloved Seattle has had a string of bad luck caused by gangs and psychopaths, and nothing more. It's still a safe city. We just have to look out for each other a bit more. And for the love of god, if you think a family member is a danger to society, do not do what this psycho's family did and protect him from the law after he assaults people, and don't ignore his problem. Help them. Especially if it's the harder thing to do.
Last edited by SpikeDurden; 06-05-2012 at 02:55 AM..
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