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No, high schools are not pay per use. Parents are not charged if they use the schools and the children, usually, go to the school nearest to them. Colleges OTOH are pay per use. You pay tuition AND TAXES in the case of public universities and students go to the school they choose.
If you don't want credentials, why are you so put off by them? No one is saying credentials make one a good teacher. All credentials say is you have the minimum required to become one.
Have you ever taught full time? There's a huge difference between doing something as a hobby and doing it as a career.
So, do tell what the hiring requirements are for community colleges. BTW, I'll be working at one in the fall. They were willing to hire me on my resume and one lesson taught which is a lot less than was required for my day job.
You have said it all and answered so much with your "No one is saying credentials make one a good teacher. All credentials say is you have the minimum required to become one". Do you really mean to say that credentialing doesn't mean you can actually do it? But that it merely means you have reached the floor of the profession to now join the other 2.8 million and begin to work your way to the top decile and pass how many millions in the process? Wow and if you don't move fast enough the next years crop will come in and pass you and some poor kid will get stuck with a perennial floor dweller while another kid gets a person performing at attic level. So much for the pride of the profession. You get nothing affirming your quality when you become certified only a paper that says you have reached the minimum. Do doctors and lawyers do that or is performance part of their credentialing process?
No, high schools are not pay per use. Parents are not charged if they use the schools and the children, usually, go to the school nearest to them. Colleges OTOH are pay per use. You pay tuition AND TAXES in the case of public universities and students go to the school they choose.
Community colleges in many states are almost free. There is no wedge between high school and community college, its a small difference in degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
If you don't want credentials, why are you so put off by them? No one is saying credentials make one a good teacher. All credentials say is you have the minimum required to become one.
To say it again, I think they are harmful to the public education system, especially for secondary education.
Also, your claim about credentials just begs the question. They are only the "minimum required to become one" because that is how the system works. The more important question is that are they really the "minimum requirement to become one" in a more general sense? There seems to be little reason to think they are an important requirement, at least in general.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Have you ever taught full time? There's a huge difference between doing something as a hobby and doing it as a career.
Yes, but I've spent more time doing it part-time. I don't have "careers", only hobbies. So I make no distinction between the two. Teaching a class involves the same work regardless of whether you are teaching 2 classes a week or 5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
So, do tell what the hiring requirements are for community colleges. BTW, I'll be working at one in the fall. They were willing to hire me on my resume and one lesson taught which is a lot less than was required for my day job.
Hiring requirements? You need a masters or the equivalent of such. That is the only formal requirement. Community colleges largely screen their teachers by first hiring them part-time. If they suck, they are not asked back. Getting a full-time tenure position takes time, not only do you usually start part-time, but you usually often have to put in 2-3 years as a full-time non-tenure faculty member first.
There is no reason why secondary schools can't hire in a similar fashion. Allow more part-time appointments and truly evaluate new non-tenure full-timers. Currently schools rarely let go new teachers that have let to get tenure.
Community colleges in many states are almost free. There is no wedge between high school and community college, its a small difference in degree.
To say it again, I think they are harmful to the public education system, especially for secondary education.
Also, your claim about credentials just begs the question. They are only the "minimum required to become one" because that is how the system works. The more important question is that are they really the "minimum requirement to become one" in a more general sense? There seems to be little reason to think they are an important requirement, at least in general.
Yes, but I've spent more time doing it part-time. I don't have "careers", only hobbies. So I make no distinction between the two. Teaching a class involves the same work regardless of whether you are teaching 2 classes a week or 5.
Hiring requirements? You need a masters or the equivalent of such. That is the only formal requirement. Community colleges largely screen their teachers by first hiring them part-time. If they suck, they are not asked back. Getting a full-time tenure position takes time, not only do you usually start part-time, but you usually often have to put in 2-3 years as a full-time non-tenure faculty member first.
There is no reason why secondary schools can't hire in a similar fashion. Allow more part-time appointments and truly evaluate new non-tenure full-timers. Currently schools rarely let go new teachers that have let to get tenure.
There's a huge difference between community college and high school.
1. The students want to be there. They are not there because it's mandated by law.
2. The bottom of the class doesn't go on to college. You never see the worst students in community or any other college.
3. The students are adults.
There is no reason people who want to work in secondary schools can't get credentials. It's not like it's hard. The credentials just mean you meet the minimum requirement. If you can't manage that, you don't belong in the classroom.
Um, no, teaching 5 classes is very different from teaching 2. It's 2.5 times the students to deal with and 2.5 times the material to grade and you should try doing the same lecture 5 times in one day. It gets tough to make sure you cover all the points because you hear yourself teach it so many times during the day. Plus, if you teach 5 classes, they're not likely the same class so you'd have more prep to do. Yeah, I'd say it's different.
You teach as a hobby. Why criticize those of us who do it as a career?
If you don't want credentials, don't get them but don't expect to be able to teach children. They'll let you teach adults because adults are adults and they can fend for themselves. Children are to be protected.
There's a huge difference between community college and high school.
1. The students want to be there. They are not there because it's mandated by law.
2. The bottom of the class doesn't go on to college. You never see the worst students in community or any other college.
3. The students are adults.
1.) I've addressed this by asking you about AP courses, the students choose to be in those classes. That is, this issue can be screwed out by looking at AP courses.
2.) There are many losers in the community college system. The drop out rate is extremely high. More people drop out than graduate/transfer. But this issue is again screwed out by looking at AP classes.
3.) This is based on the rather silly idea that people transform dramatically in 3 months between their senior year and freshman year in college. They don't. Many freshman are not even 18.
You don't seem to understand the argument I'm making. You keep mentioning that "bottom of the class does not go to college" issue is the key variable that explains why credential is not needed in college. Its ignore the inanity of this in itself and instead try to screen out the variable. Well, this is easily done by looking at AP courses. Here, too, you will not find the bottom of the class. So then, credentials should not be required if indeed this is the key variable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
There is no reason people who want to work in secondary schools can't get credentials. It's not like it's hard.The credentials just mean you meet the minimum requirement. If you can't manage that, you don't belong in the classroom.
Yes, there is no reason why they "can't", but there are many reasons why they "don't"! Right its not hard, in fact its such a waste of time its not even correlated with teaching quality. You think I'm talking about people that can't manage to make it threw the pathetic credential program? No, I'm talking about people that are intelligent and can do a variety of other things with their lives. For them, the credential is an added barrier to getting them in the public school system. And the public school system needs them badly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Um, no, teaching 5 classes is very different from teaching 2. It's 2.5 times the students to deal with and 2.5 times the material to grade and you should try doing the same lecture 5 times in one day.
Geez, of course, teaching 5 classes is more work than 2 classes. That is not my point. My point is that individually on a per class basis, you are spending just as much work when part-time vs full-time. In fact, you probably spend less time per class full time because some of the work is duplicated!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
You teach as a hobby. Why criticize those of us who do it as a career?
I'm criticizing the credential program, not teachers. This has nothing to do with "career" vs "hobby". I was simply noting that I have little interest in what most people call "careers" on a personal level. If someone wants to make a career out of teaching, I have no problem with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
If you don't want credentials, don't get them but don't expect to be able to teach children.
The basis of my argument has little to do with my personal desires. Its as if you people are so use to irrationality and self serving arguments that you can't understand why someone would argue for X when they don't directly benefit from X.
Also, I've already taught "children" (high school aged). If I wanted to teach children I could rather easily get a job teaching at an excellent private school. Hell, I could probably fairly easily get a job in California public educations system without getting a credential. But, mainly because "I know people". But this is a sad statement on the system. There are other also issues too, I'm also not interested in the public school system because it forces one to teach one of my subject (Mathematics) in such a fundamentally idiotic fashion that there is little way to avoid it. Other subjects I can teach, it does not teach at all, despite badly needing too. On the other hand a top private school would be rather receptive to proper Mathematics training and courses outside of the narrow notion of "Science, history, english, math".
Yeah yeah, I've heard it all before. The important question is whether having a teaching credential is correlated with "being a good teacher". There are a number of studies that show the answer is "no, not really". And again, our college system does not require them. I guess a professor at Harvard is not a "professional" like a elementary school teacher...
And please for the love of god don't compare doctors, lawyers and nurses...hell even teachers..to real estate agents! Its an insult of the highest degree.
Doctors, lawyers and nurses should be licensed. There is little evidence that indicates its important in teaching. But there was already a thread on this, so I'll end it here.
Well, I won't.
Stop ignoring my question.
Why is it important to license doctors, lawyers, nurses, accountants, dentists, veternarians?
How is this a problem with my argument? Colleges get away without having credentials because they rely on other things, there is no reason why the secondary system can not work in a similar fashion. Also, I prefer to compare secondary to the community college system, its more similar.
Our college system is superior to our high school system.
I disagree that colleges and Universities work well without licensing and work better than 1-12 education.
There are MANY terrible teachers on the University level. The majority of undergraduate faculty are adjunct, flying through the door to teach at X number of other colleges. Many are flunkies in between jobs in 'education'.
The really good professors are tenured, with doctorates, and they teach mostly graduate students. The system doesn't work well, it just serves as a gatekeeper for young adults to phase them into the work force.
Why is it important to license doctors, lawyers, nurses, accountants, dentists, veternarians?
Apparently, it's not because a license doesn't guarantee you're good.
Personally, I'm glad all of them and more are licensed. The process weeds out the worst of them. It doesn't guarantee that the ones who make it are any good but it's a start.
I disagree that colleges and Universities work well without licensing and work better than 1-12 education.
There are MANY terrible teachers on the University level. The majority of undergraduate faculty are adjunct, flying through the door to teach at X number of other colleges. Many are flunkies in between jobs in 'education'.
The really good professors are tenured, with doctorates, and they teach mostly graduate students. The system doesn't work well, it just serves as a gatekeeper for young adults to phase them into the work force.
I agree on all counts. College is a start. It's not intended to send out a finished product. Only to start laying a foundation.
I also agree there are many bad professors. With four degrees, I've had my share of bad professors on all levels. Sadly, even tenure doesn't guarantee they're any good in the classroom. I had some fantastic teachers too. Unfortunately, ability to teach isn't one of the criteria colleges use to hire professors.
There's a huge difference between community college and high school.
1. The students want to be there. They are not there because it's mandated by law.
2. The bottom of the class doesn't go on to college. You never see the worst students in community or any other college.
3. The students are adults.
There is no reason people who want to work in secondary schools can't get credentials. It's not like it's hard. The credentials just mean you meet the minimum requirement. If you can't manage that, you don't belong in the classroom.
Um, no, teaching 5 classes is very different from teaching 2. It's 2.5 times the students to deal with and 2.5 times the material to grade and you should try doing the same lecture 5 times in one day. It gets tough to make sure you cover all the points because you hear yourself teach it so many times during the day. Plus, if you teach 5 classes, they're not likely the same class so you'd have more prep to do. Yeah, I'd say it's different.
You teach as a hobby. Why criticize those of us who do it as a career?
If you don't want credentials, don't get them but don't expect to be able to teach children. They'll let you teach adults because adults are adults and they can fend for themselves. Children are to be protected.
Wow, right on point, and as a matter of fact, you kept it quite real. THANK YOU FOR DEFENDING OUR PROFESSION.
We had a guy a couple years ago, PhD in Chem, former college instructor, non-certified. He was brought in to teach the AP Chem class. Result: 22 scores of 1 out of 22, zero kids signing up the next year (word of mouth), his chemical storage was red flagged during an inspection and a team came in to make it safe. As AP coordinator I observed him informally a couple times (I haven't had a Chem class since 1971) and even I was able to pick up mistakes in formulae and information. One of his chemical mixes during a lab would have resulted in an explosion, I picked that up, as did several students.
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There's a huge difference between community college and high school. 
I agree on all counts. College is a start. It's not intended to send out a finished product. Only to start laying a foundation. 
