Progress Race:Dallas,Houston,Austin,San Antonio (Fort Worth, Plano: sublease, purchasing)

[TexasTallest]

Originally Posted by Retail Man

Not from the consideration of height, but from what is most prime in real estate. The area around the Crescent is the most prime area in all of North Texas in retail, office space, hotels, and residential.

From the point of view of retail, central Houston isn't even urban. It is unplanned and bohemian. This means residents in central Houston are going to need a vehicle to get around. Just look at the retail on both sides of the Katy Trail alone? The West End Historic District, The Dallas Design District (300 stores), The Crescent, West Village, Turtle Creek Village, and Knox - Henderson. Shoot, I didn't even mention Victory Park which has suffered a lot. It is undergoing a $100,000,000 redevelopment.

From the point of view of what is most erect pertaining to tall (and probable empty) office space, i think Houston will always win this award.

I'll bite..

First off, since when did retail have anything to do with "urban"?

So all of your retail districts are around Uptown.. thats great for the 20,000 or so people who live there. But not so great for everyone else.. While a lot of Houston's retail districts are more "spread out", that makes them closer to so many more people than the retail around Uptown Dallas serves.

But if a corridor of retail is what you desire, just look at the retail on both sides of Westheimer alone. In the stretch from Kirby to Post Oak (a mile shorter than the 3.5 mile Katy Trail), you have the shops at West Ave, soon the Kirby Collection, Highland Village, eventually shops at the ongoing Mid Lane development, River Oaks District, the Centre at Post Oak.. Oh, and a little something called theGalleria (400 stores).

The last part about tall "probable empty" buildings is pure gold coming from a Dallasite..

[Retail Man]

Originally Posted by TexasTallest

I'll bite..

First off, since when did retail have anything to do with "urban"?

So all of your retail districts are around Uptown.. thats great for the 20,000 or so people who live there. But not so great for everyone else.. While a lot of Houston's retail districts are more "spread out", that makes them closer to so many more people than the retail around Uptown Dallas serves.

But if a corridor of retail is what you desire, just look at the retail on both sides of Westheimer alone. In the stretch from Kirby to Post Oak (a mile shorter than the 3.5 mile Katy Trail), you have the shops at West Ave, soon the Kirby Collection, Highland Village, eventually shops at the ongoing Mid Lane development, River Oaks District, the Centre at Post Oak.. Oh, and a little something called theGalleria (400 stores).

The last part about tall "probable empty" buildings is pure gold coming from a Dallasite..

Indeed, the prime area of retail in Houston is not downtown Houston. This is my argument. At the same time, it can be argued that The Crescent in uptown is fast rising in prestige and is in danger of surpassing both Highland Park Village and Northpark Center.

As a result, in contrast to central Houston, the area of central Dallas should be viewed from the perspective of Uptown being at the core center. The only reason it isn't considered so is because people tend to get carried away by the height of office buildings.

This was surely Steven Brown's viewpoint when he wrote the recent article about the numbers of apartments now under construction within the core areas of the major cities in Texas. While prime for central Houston has long been in the same general area of downtown Houston for the last thirty years, that same designation for central Dallas has been quite dynamic in comparison. Indeed, during the same thirty year period, the prime area of central Dallas has moved from Main Street in downtown out to Ross Avenue in the Dallas Arts District. In more recent times, the prime area has moved yet again from Ross Avenue out to where it now stands in Uptown along McKinney Avenue.

I don't know why people don't put Caroline Rose Hunt in the same category as Nasher and his monumental NorthPark or Hines and his creation of the Houston Galleria. Her company spent 400,000,000 dollars back in the mid eighties building the original triangular shape of The Crescent. That same amount of money spent today would be the equivalent of about a billion dollars. When asked why she built it, she said she saw a vacuum existing between downtown Dallas as the center of office space and the Turtle Creek area as the center for high rise residential.

What is amazing about central Dallas is the amount of luxury retail locating to the area. It is beginning to concentrate in downtown Dallas around the Joule Hotel. In fact, Forty-Five-Ten is now in the process of relocating into that neighborhood close to the existing Neiman Marcus department store. Meanwhile, Stanley Korshak, the largest independent luxury department store in the nation is located in the Crescent. Then there is Knox Street which is becoming quite popular itself as that is where Forty-Five-Ten has its present location.

Neiman Marcus, Stanley Korshak, and Forty Five Ten is a respectable list of luxury retail. It surprises me that Forty Five Ten would choose to relocate in downtown over Uptown, but, then again, it is a very similar department store to Stanley Korshak.

I don't think there is any comparing central Dallas to central Houston when the focus is placed upon retail.

[TexasTallest]

Originally Posted by Retail Man

I don't think there is any comparing central Dallas to central Houston when the focus is placed upon retail.

Who was ever comparing central Dallas to central Houston with a focus placed upon retail, besides you? Dont try to change the parameters of "urban" to whatever suits your situation best.. Retail definitely does not define "urban". If you want to discuss retail, see the Texas Shopping Paradise thread.. This is a development thread.

[Exult.Q36]

Originally Posted by TexasTallest

Who was ever comparing central Dallas to central Houston with a focus placed upon retail, besides you? Retail hardly defines "urban". If you want to discuss retail, see the Texas Shopping Paradise thread.. This is a development thread.

Retail is apart of development. The majority of the mix use projects that are taking place across the Metroplex have a retail component to it. His points are valid.

[Exult.Q36]

Something else that should be noted is world renowned cities like London and Paris have only recently started building skyscrapers. Those cities are way more compact and dense than Dallas or Houston. So, the idea that tall buildings make a city denser or superior in development is silly. Dallas prefers corporate campus and mix use type of development and Houston prefers building skyscrapers. It really doesn't make either city superior to the other in development.

[TexasTallest]

Originally Posted by kdogg817

Retail is apart of development. The majority of the mix use projects that are taking place across the Metroplex have a retail component to it. His points are valid.

No, they really aren't. The majority of the mixed use projects that are taking place across Houston have a retail component to them too.. And Houston has more developments, so I'm not sure how his points are "valid".

[Exult.Q36]

Originally Posted by TexasTallest

No, they really aren't. The majority of the mixed use projects that are taking place across Houston have a retail component to them too.. And Houston has more developments, so I'm not sure how his points are "valid".

Houston doesn't have more development going on than the Metroplex. Now that's a myth. Metro wise DFW trumps Houston in development. Irving, Fort Worth, Dallas, Frisco,Plano, Richardson , etc all have billion dollar mix use projects in progress.

[TexasTallest]

Originally Posted by kdogg817

Something else that should be noted is world renowned cities like London and Paris have only recently started building skyscrapers. Those cities are way more compact and dense than Dallas or Houston. So, the idea that tall buildings make a city denser or superior in development is silly. Dallas prefers corporate campus and mix use type of development and Houston prefers building skyscrapers. It really doesn't make either city superior to the other in development.

European cities are an anomaly in terms of skyscrapers. It should be noted that world renowned cities like New York and Chicago are practically built on their skylines. The idea that a tall building makes a city "superior" in development is that taller buildings generally equal bigger developments. Not to mention better use of land.
I guess Exxon didn't just spend billions of dollars building a corporate campus for 10,000 employees on the north side of Houston? Unfortunately those types of suburban corporate campuses exist in Houston as well..
Practically every new building in downtown Houston is "mixed use", with some form of retail component. Not to mention all of the mixed use developments going up elsewhere in the city.. But I agree, one style of development doesnt necessarily make a city "superior" to the other in development.. that comes down to opinion. The part that can't be argued is the amount of development..

[TexasTallest]

Originally Posted by kdogg817

Houston doesn't have more development going on than the Metroplex. Now that's a myth. Metro wise DFW trumps Houston in development. Irving, Fort Worth, Dallas, Frisco,Plano, Richardson , etc all have billion dollar mix use projects in progress.

Im referring to the parameters of this thread set by dallasboi.. Since 2012, yes.. Houston has been killing it. And he was asking about the "core". I agree, in the last year the suburbs of Dallas have overtaken the suburbs of Houston in terms of new developments, but its too little, too late...

[dallasboi]

Well...today i noticed 3 more projects that just broke ground that i completely forgot about.....we have 1 year and 10 months left in this 5 year span.

The amount of change in Dallas' core at the end of 2017 will be the most drastic change of all the cities.......But that is MY opinion.