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Im referring to the parameters of this thread set by dallasboi.. Since 2012, yes.. Houston has been killing it. And he was asking about the "core". I agree, in the last year the suburbs of Dallas have overtaken the suburbs of Houston in terms of new developments, but its too little, too late...
You know there is no suburb in Houston area or the state of Texas for that matter that compares to Irving, TX. Please don't try to say the Woodlands because it's not in the same class even with the Exxonmobil campus and once all the major mixuse projects are completed in Irving the gap between Irving and the Woodland's, Plano's, Katy's and Frisco's of the world will only grow. Irving is the original corporate Mecca suburb in Texas and I am surprise Dallas posters don't rave about the town a lot more and the developments that are taking place. Irving is by far the most progressive suburb in Texas IMO.
Also I don't really think that Houston suburbs development projects have really just killed DFW suburbs development projects ever. I agree with you that Houston core for a time there was on fire with growth and development during the boom and was definitely outpacing Dallas core growth by a good margin.
Last edited by Exult.Q36; 03-02-2016 at 01:39 AM..
Also I don't really think that Houston suburbs development projects have really just killed DFW suburbs development projects ever. I do agree with you that Houston core for a time there was on fire with growth and development during the boom and was definitely outpacing Dallas core growth by a good margin.
Who said anything about Houston suburbs killing DFW suburbs? I said Houston development has been "killing it". Didn't specify the suburbs. Im not sure what major new developments are going up in Irving besides the Cowboys project (can't say I've followed Irving much though), but I agree.. Houston suburbs never "killed" DFW suburbs. The DFW suburbs have just been doing noticeably better than Houstons suburbs over the last year, in terms of attracting developments.
Well...today i noticed 3 more projects that just broke ground that i completely forgot about.....we have 1 year and 10 months left in this 5 year span.
The amount of change in Dallas' core at the end of 2017 will be the most drastic change of all the cities.......But that is MY opinion.
Nice! .. But there is less than a year left in this 5 year span. You started the thread in February 2012.
You're entitled to your own opinion.. But in terms of development, I'm not sure any other downtown in Texas has come close to downtown Houston's recent change. Though if the thread parameters went on long enough to include the completion of Fort Worths Trinity project (and it gets built out as envisioned), they would surely be able to make a decent claim to the most change in their core.
Well...today i noticed 3 more projects that just broke ground that i completely forgot about.....we have 1 year and 10 months left in this 5 year span.
The amount of change in Dallas' core at the end of 2017 will be the most drastic change of all the cities.......But that is MY opinion.
Unless Dallas pulls a super-tall out in 1 year and 10 months Houston is the clear winner. What I found interesting about downtown Dallas development is its mainly taking place in the Arts district and Victory Park if you consider it apart of downtown. Most consider the developments mentioned above a spill over from booming Uptown Dallas. If Dallas is serious about growth Downtown First National Bank redevelopment project is key because it will spear head growth into parts of downtown that have been stagnant for years. I predict a residential building boom in downtown Dallas if they can find an investor to take over the First National Bank development. It appears a California investor is interested. I think what is unique about this downtown Dallas growth scenario is it contradicts the popular beliefs that uptown growth will spill over into downtown Dallas. In fact with this scenario uptown Dallas growth would have little to do with the resurgence of downtown Dallas.
Who was ever comparing central Dallas to central Houston with a focus placed upon retail, besides you? Dont try to change the parameters of "urban" to whatever suits your situation best.. Retail definitely does not define "urban". If you want to discuss retail, see the Texas Shopping Paradise thread.. This is a development thread.
The retail is important for sustainability. During downturns, many of the master plans for developments get scrapped. During the later recovery, they won't get revived. In the process, as was the situation in both Houston and Dallas after the energy bust of the eighties, lots of urban infill will remain empty for decades as new development skips out of town another five to ten miles.
The best way to avoid this phenomena of scrapping master planned developments during major downturns is to establish retail.
If you had to duplicate The Crescent somewhere in central Houston, this being the immediate vicinity in and around downtown Houston, where would you develop it? I think The Crescent is being taken for granted in this debate.
Unless Dallas pulls a super-tall out in 1 year and 10 months Houston is the clear winner. What I found interesting about downtown Dallas development is its mainly taking place in the Arts district and Victory Park if you consider it apart of downtown. Most consider the developments mentioned above a spill over from booming Uptown Dallas. If Dallas is serious about growth Downtown First National Bank redevelopment project is key because it will spear head growth into parts of downtown that have been stagnant for years. I predict a residential building boom in downtown Dallas if they can find an investor to take over the First National Bank development. It appears a California investor is interested. I think what is unique about this downtown Dallas growth scenario is it contradicts the popular beliefs that uptown growth will spill over into downtown Dallas. In fact with this scenario uptown Dallas growth would have little to do with the resurgence of downtown Dallas.
Rather than constructing super talls, I think the two grocery stores close to The Crescent are more of a significant factor. I am speaking of the new Whole Foods which is already opened and the planned Tom Thumb both of them located about a thousand feet from The Crescent. Indeed, one doesn't build street level retail by building it equally on every corner in all places. The retail gets built by people who take risks building bigger, better, and more luxurious stores. Like Forty Five Ten daring to go into downtown Dallas and build a 45,000 square foot department store. That is what develops retail. Not building it naively all over the place.
And it is indeed the Uptown area that is spilling into every district around it. More specifically, the closer a development is to The Crescent, the higher in scale it will be. Think of Germany. They say the closer a Western European nation is to Germany, the better its economy will be. Greece being the furthest step away from German is indeed the poorest Western European nations. I think it is exactly the same in the central Dallas area. Everything in central Dallas revolves around The Crescent.
Houston doesn't have more development going on than the Metroplex. Now that's a myth. Metro wise DFW trumps Houston in development. Irving, Fort Worth, Dallas, Frisco,Plano, Richardson , etc all have billion dollar mix use projects in progress.
As do most of the suburbs and surrounding communities of Houston as well though.. (I'll give you Irving is on another level, but don't discount that the Woodlands isn't heading that way and will look very similar in about 50 years time).
I swear you people will never give it up no matter what until everyone just agrees with you that Dallas is the best city on Texas/Earth. Just look at this thread, it's been a constant sliding scale of what defines true progress, with the only consistent hallmark of said slide being a movement of the needle in favor of the metroplex. Truth be told, the cities are remarkably identical compared to most other US cities.
As do most of the suburbs and surrounding communities of Houston as well though.. (I'll give you Irving is on another level, but don't discount that the Woodlands isn't heading that way and will look very similar in about 50 years time).
I swear you people will never give it up no matter what until everyone just agrees with you that Dallas is the best city on Texas/Earth. Just look at this thread, it's been a constant sliding scale of what defines true progress, with the only consistent hallmark of said slide being a movement of the needle in favor of the metroplex. Truth be told, the cities are remarkably identical compared to most other US cities.
If what you say were the truth, I'd agree with you. Outside people desiring information about the Houston and Dallas areas aren't going to gain much insight learning that they are almost identical.
I don't think central Dallas and central Houston compare, but contrast. For example, for the life of me, I can't think of any urban retail inside central Houston with that area being nine square miles with downtown at its center. I can only think of the River Oaks Shopping Center which was built back in the 30s. However, even this retail would be located outside of the nine square miles I defined.
The retail in Central Houston is mostly bohemian the same kind that is developing along Henderson Avenue in Dallas. This is why I define central Dallas as urban and Houston as bohemian. Being bohemian has always been a cool factor for Houston. I noticed this about Houston way back even in the 70's when I was a kid. To say that central Houston is both urban and bohemian is getting your cake and eating it too. Aside from this, it isn't being honest and informative.
Considering the office space and tall buildings of central Houston and Dallas, what pushes up the price of real estate in downtown Houston is the huge sizes of the energy companies based in the area. Investors know that these companies aren't going any where even during a downturn. So, the office space becomes a great long term investment. When these huge companies go bankrupt, they get purchased. Even if they get bought up, the purchasing company will still hold onto the space. So, at the very worst, the office space will be put back on the market as sublease space which is what is happening today. So, regardless of the condition, the investor gets their money.
I am wondering if this factor has run up the price of real estate in the most prime area of downtown Houston to the extent that it hurts retail development. This is why I mentioned The Crescent development in Uptown Dallas. The central Houston area has nothing to compare to it. Yet, the price for the most prime of office market along Louisiana Street street in downtown Houston is more expensive than the most prime office market in North Texas along McKinney Avenue in Uptown.
You don't find this kind of contrasting style informative?
If what you say were the truth, I'd agree with you. Outside people desiring information about the Houston and Dallas areas aren't going to gain much insight learning that they are almost identical.
I don't think central Dallas and central Houston compare, but contrast. For example, for the life of me, I can't think of any urban retail inside central Houston with that area being nine square miles with downtown at its center. I can only think of the River Oaks Shopping Center which was built back in the 30s. However, even this retail would be located outside of the nine square miles I defined.
The retail in Central Houston is mostly bohemian the same kind that is developing along Henderson Avenue in Dallas. This is why I define central Dallas as urban and Houston as bohemian. Being bohemian has always been a cool factor for Houston. I noticed this about Houston way back even in the 70's when I was a kid. To say that central Houston is both urban and bohemian is getting your cake and eating it too. Aside from this, it isn't being honest and informative.
Considering the office space and tall buildings of central Houston and Dallas, what pushes up the price of real estate in downtown Houston is the huge sizes of the energy companies based in the area. Investors know that these companies aren't going any where even during a downturn. So, the office space becomes a great long term investment. When these huge companies go bankrupt, they get purchased. Even if they get bought up, the purchasing company will still hold onto the space. So, at the very worst, the office space will be put back on the market as sublease space which is what is happening today. So, regardless of the condition, the investor gets their money.
I am wondering if this factor has run up the price of real estate in the most prime area of downtown Houston to the extent that it hurts retail development. This is why I mentioned The Crescent development in Uptown Dallas. The central Houston area has nothing to compare to it. Yet, the price for the most prime of office market along Louisiana Street street in downtown Houston is more expensive than the most prime office market in North Texas along McKinney Avenue in Uptown.
You don't find this kind of contrasting style informative?
I think it's fine to point out contrasts, so long as you're recognizing that the differences are extremely nuanced and doesn't really refute the fact that the cities are very similar compared with most others in the US. Here's a quick view looking west towards that bohemian part of town about 2 miles west of our CBD: https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1556/...9664f364_k.jpg
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..and this is the street you essentially tried to compare all its' development to? Outside of a few stretches of Westheimer in/near Montrose or the Rice Village area, I'm not sure where Houston does resemble this type of retail development.
Last edited by RonnieinDallas; 03-02-2016 at 05:36 PM..
Reason: If you didn't take the pic, then only post as link
I think it's fine to point out contrasts, so long as you're recognizing that the differences are extremely nuanced and doesn't really refute the fact that the cities are very similar compared with most others in the US. Here's a quick view looking west towards that bohemian part of town about 2 miles west of our CBD: https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1556/...9664f364_k.jpg
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..and this is the street you essentially tried to compare all its' development to? Outside of a few stretches of Westheimer in/near Montrose or the Rice Village area, I'm not sure where Houston does resemble this type of retail development.
Another contrast between the cities is how retail becomes anchors for surrounding office buildings in Dallas. The competition for constructing quality shopping centers has always been the tradition in Dallas. In the recent remaking the the city that is still ongoing, the surviving urban retail has been very convenient. For example, in North Oak Cliff, there are three interesting areas of retail in close proximity. One is the very pretty area on the west side of Lake Cliff, another is the Bishops Arts District along Davis Street, and, finally, the last one is the mile long shopping district of Jefferson Blvd. Where does one go next? Well, the most logical course is to go south on Zang Blvd to Wynnwood Shopping Center. From there, to the west of Wynnwood is a little stretch of retail along S. Edgefield in the pretty neighborhood of Edgefield.
The scene in the movie "Born on the Forth of July" was filmed along this little stretch of commercial.
One can piece together the overall puzzle by focusing on the retail. The same isn't true concerning office buildings. By focusing on the retail, the office buildings will follow.
Another contrast between the two cities is how the two plazas of parks systems in central Houston, these being the pretty areas of Herman Park and the Memorial Park / Braes Bayou area, are devoid of any significant retail. To me, those two are synonymous. Again, just think of all the retail surrounding the Katy Trail in central Dallas?
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