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Honestly, I would say focus very little on comments in this forum about what people are "like". Ask practical questions and focus on those answers. That's where this forum really shines. I've lived in a number of other very large cities in North America, and I don't find Toronto to be any more standoff-ish than the others. Probably less so.
But changing countries--even between ones as closely aligned as the US and Canada--is a big decision. In addition to the visa process, you will encounter difficulties like having no credit history: some building managers won't rent to you and your first credit card will probably have a very low limit. These things can certainly be overcome, but I think they are much more relevant considerations than a stranger's view on the social scene. I posted a few threads previously about banking, cell phones, etc. when I was considering moving back to Toronto this spring, and I found them immensely helpful. It was great to be armed with some of that knowledge beforehand.
I think JProg305's intuition is that if the social scene is bad enough, then not else really matters. I share that intuition -- as I'm sure many others do as well. And since he knows no one here, how else is he going to get a sense of the social scene other than by asking strangers?
1) What I have said in this thread -- what I have said since I joined this site -- about Toronto being a difficult place for newcomers applies more to men than to women. There is simply a different dynamic involved for women.
2) I myself am a well-educated left-leaning type. And yet I have had the experience I have had.
I think that Leaving on a Jet Plane is partially right, I was mostly interested in figuring out whether I would fit in and whether the social scene was as bad as some of the posters in this forum make it out to be. I know to take advice on this forum with a grain of salt, but if so many people on this forum are talking about the breakdown of Toronto's social scene and there are so many other articles/stories about it online, it must be reflecting some type of palpable, if intangible, social reality or phenomenon.
In any case, I will end up moving wherever I get a job and if it happens to be in Toronto, or elsewhere in Canada, I will gladly move there, buy a proper coat and toque and deal with it the best way I know how. As far as the socio-political climate of Toronto is concerned, I welcome the idea of living in a place with policies that I consider to be more sane, rational, and progressive than the policies that exist where I'm from. From what I can gather, it seems like even Canadian conservatives would be considered slightly left of center in the U.S. Barack Obama, who is considered a socialist by many right-wingers in the U.S., is a centrist from a policy standpoint. Only in the U.S. would a man like Obama be considered a socialist. He's not even a social democrat, which IS significantly different than a true blue socialist. Political spectrums are relative and the far right in the U.S. is downright scary. Do a little research into the Tea Party if you're not familiar with it. Florida's governor is a true horse's ass.
Our founding principles are just different than Canada's. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is often achieved in the U.S. at the expense of others. Canada's founding principles of peace, order, and good government may not be as sexy as the U.S.'s principles, but they seem to be more in line with my way of thinking. That being said, I do like being surrounded with people of differing political stripes. Only hanging around similar people (whether the similarities are based on race, ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, etc) can get pretty boring quickly. Only being around hyper PC people can get old quick too so I understand Maclock's frustration. In any case, I thank everyone for the feedback and I've enjoyed reading the posts in this forum, even if they are argumentative and contentious at times.
Also, thanks for the info on Quebec's smaller colleges. Maclock is right, I do not speak French, but I would be willing to learn some conversational French since I already know Spanish. Teaching in French is another story altogether. I would need several years of immersion in order to speak it well enough to teach at the college level.
JProg - My values are completely oppositional to maclock's and I find the city too conservative, whereas he finds it too liberal, so likely the truth lies somewhere in between. I have tended to let my impressions of Toronto be sort of clouded by my experiences in Halifax - a place where I truly feel at home - but I should keep reminding myself that my experiences of Toronto are largely the experiences of a much younger person who grew up in a more conservative area of a community (Etobicoke) that was, until its recent amalgamation, essentially a suburb of Toronto. And so of course I felt like an outsider in that kind of an environment.
I have a lot of friends in Toronto, and I usually only consider how they're my friends because we grew up together. But actually, I made a number of friends outside of Etobicoke and following my high school experience. I worked at a bookstore down-town when I was twenty, and I made friends through my workplace very easily. I was also quite involved in a folk music community that centred around a weekly open mic. night. I arrived at both work and the open mic. without knowing a soul, and quickly found myself a part of these communities. I still keep in touch with some of those people today. I really do think that if you put yourself out there and get involved in things you enjoy doing, you won't have any problems making friends or meeting potential partners. Casually, Toronto does seem standoffish and too hurried to me, but in actuality it is filled with all kinds of interesting and friendly people. It is true what people have said about so much of your experience being about your own outlook.
As far as the Quebec CEGEPs go, you don't need to speak any French to teach at the English language ones, they cater to the Anglophone minority in Quebec and Francophones who want to fully immerse themselves in an English language environment. You'd need some French for everyday life getting around, but none for work in this particular case.
Thanks again for being so responsive. I must admit that I'm starting to doubt whether I'd like to take the leap and immigrate to Canada/move to Toronto. Honestly, you guys are scaring me a bit.
I had exactly the same reaction. So much anti-Toronto hate on this forum. I actually took a trip up there to see for myself with the express purpose of finding out whether all the hate had merit or not, because I'm moving to Canada, and I sure as heck didn't want to be in a socially frigid hell-hole, that's for sure.
Turns out I had one of the best trips of anywhere I've been in the world. Because I was explicitly trying to find out whether Torontonians are as horrible as so many here on the board claim, I made it a point to try to get friendly with everyone. Waiters, taxi drives, people in the hotel, all the way up to one of most important people in Canada whom I had the very good fortune to meet. Everyone, and I mean everyone was nice. And beyond nice, offering (and following through) on special favors, introductions to people in my line of work, taking me up to their summer houses outside the GTA, one girl took me out to show me the club district on Saturday night.
I was stunned, having been scared to death by the haters on this board.
So my advice to you would be to just go there yourself, and do your own research. Then at least you'll have some context. Just going and trying to meet people sure paid off for me, and I hope it does for you too.
I actually have been to Toronto. I was only there for a little over a week but I liked it very much. That's part of the reason I started this thread. The anti-Toronto comments on this forum made me want to figure out if I was missing something when I was there. Compared to Miami, Toronto is a VERY friendly city. I also found that, in my humble opinion (I hope this doesn't start a war) Torontonians are much friendlier than Vancouverites. Just a first impression of the two cities.
I was basically trying to find out from natives, and hopefully from people who moved there from the states, whether living there and visiting were different experiences for them. Obviously, I understand that living in a place and visiting are different but I wanted to hash out the whole broken social scene thing.
I actually have been to Toronto. I was only there for a little over a week but I liked it very much. That's part of the reason I started this thread. The anti-Toronto comments on this forum made me want to figure out if I was missing something when I was there. Compared to Miami, Toronto is a VERY friendly city. I also found that, in my humble opinion (I hope this doesn't start a war) Torontonians are much friendlier than Vancouverites. Just a first impression of the two cities.
I was basically trying to find out from natives, and hopefully from people who moved there from the states, whether living there and visiting were different experiences for them. Obviously, I understand that living in a place and visiting are different but I wanted to hash out the whole broken social scene thing.
That's very reassuring to hear, because your good experience mirrors mine. I'm very much looking foward to moving there.
BTW all the Canadians I met from Niagara, Hamilton, Burlington, Oakville (we looked for houses all along) were very nice. So it wasn't just Toronto.
I had exactly the same reaction. So much anti-Toronto hate on this forum. I actually took a trip up there to see for myself with the express purpose of finding out whether all the hate had merit or not, because I'm moving to Canada, and I sure as heck didn't want to be in a socially frigid hell-hole, that's for sure.
Turns out I had one of the best trips of anywhere I've been in the world. Because I was explicitly trying to find out whether Torontonians are as horrible as so many here on the board claim, I made it a point to try to get friendly with everyone. Waiters, taxi drives, people in the hotel, all the way up to one of most important people in Canada whom I had the very good fortune to meet. Everyone, and I mean everyone was nice. And beyond nice, offering (and following through) on special favors, introductions to people in my line of work, taking me up to their summer houses outside the GTA, one girl took me out to show me the club district on Saturday night.
I was stunned, having been scared to death by the haters on this board.
So my advice to you would be to just go there yourself, and do your own research. Then at least you'll have some context. Just going and trying to meet people sure paid off for me, and I hope it does for you too.
There may be a few things at play here. For one, I have read some of your other posts, and if you ever expressed any of your left-liberal sentiments to many people in Toronto, then similarly-minded Torontonians would have loved you instantly. The urban core of Toronto is overwhelmingly left-liberal territory, and people with your apparent leanings are the only people normally welcome to speak without being ignored, marginalized, dismissed or attacked.
A second possible explanation is that you are an American who seems to be intensely dissatisfied with America. If you ever expressed any sentiments reflecting this attitude to the many America haters in Toronto, then they would have overlooked the fact that you are an American and embraced you with open arms. Toronto grew when loyalists fleeing the American revolution settled there and thus it has always had -- and it will continue to have for the foreseeable future -- an anti-American sentiment whether express or implied.
Thirdly, some Torontonians are prejudiced against people from parts of Canada like Alberta and Newfoundland because there has been a tradition to view people from such places as ignorant hicks. If you come from outside of the country, however, then Torontonians will welcome you as they have been similarly conditioned to welcome people from outside Canada's borders as being valuable additions to the city's rich cultural diversity. So, sometimes Torontonians are not welcoming to people from other corners of their own country (unless, you know, those people also gush about fixies, bike lanes, recycling, hating America, composting, feed-in tariffs for green power, carbon taxes, Canadian culture or whatever the left-liberal conceits du jour happen to be) but they are almost always welcoming to foreigners, Americans who dislike America included.
Finally, Torontonians just loooooooooooove Canada, so if you told them just how much you love Canada, then they would have just loved you. If they knew that you were an American as well, then that would have made them swoon even more. I suspect that they like to hear such expressions of praise because it does something to confirm their conceits and to vindicate Canada's existence, but that is just a suspicion on my part.
I am new at this forum thing, and so to make myself clear , I'm responding to the opening thread here.
To move to Toronto or not:
I have lived in 3 different continents, and have recently lived in Edmonton Alberta, and am now a permanent resident of Vancouver due to a remarriage. I have lived in Toronto for the majority of my life and can tell you the positives
1. It is not true that Toronto is not welcoming to newcomers, in fact , in all the places I have lived in the world, I have to say that Toronto has the nicest people. Please keep in mind that you will have rude people in every city., so having said that, I found through my 29 years of living there, that generally speaking it's a great place to live.
2. It is a multicultural city and there are certain areas that are quite prevalent to certain nationalities. For example, you have the east side, on Danforth Avenue, which is very Greek oriented, there is chinatown, Mississauga is quite diverse, and has a multicultural flavor to it, with plenty of Europeans, as well as East Indians, however, no one culture is prevalant. If you like the flavor of Italy, Woodbridge Ontario is a great place and has some great subdivisions, condo's, and is big enough that you wouldn't need to ever go downtown. I found that there is an Italian flavor to Woodbridge as well as Maple Ontario, which is also becoming diverse with those of Italian decent. These two areas are in the GTA (GENERAL TORONTO AREA). You will find hundreds of Italian boutiques, restaurants, bakeries (always my favorite...the food is good and made inside the bakery, and most have sit down and take out). I have lived in Woodbridge and never had a problem. Maple Ontario is the home of Canada's wonderland and has grown quite a bit over the last decade. Maple and Woodbridge both have everything you need, ie , doctors, dentisits, etc. Richmond Hill and Thornhill are nice, with more Jewish feel to it. Newmarket Ontario is also within the GTA and is probably my favorite because of the diverse multicultural flavor to the town. You have the city hall there, great public transportation, shopping malls, and basically everything you need, if you are not big on going to downtown Toronto, which is great if you want to visit, but you would't want to live there. Downtown Toronto is the area where many tourist attractions, the large office buildings and the Air Canada Centre. Downtown Toronto can be very expensive to live in , but transportation is great and from what I have experienced, the people are helpful to tourists and newcomers. Downtown Toronto has great broadway shows and is kind of like Broadway in New York city , Time's square. It is an extremely clean city, and reclycling and that sort of thing is enforced a great deal. Toronto as well as the outside municipalities that encompass the greater Toronto Area, are very big on the environment, and have great programs as far as garbage, and recycling.
Toronto has the East end, West End , South and North end, with the East having a great Greek touch to it, the South would be considered Toronto itself, North would be considered Woodbridge, Maple, Barrie, Bradford, and so many other cities within cities.
I would suggest, if you do consider Toronto (and I hope you do), that you register for meetups.com , which is a great organization all over the world that form groups for all interests. Registration is free, and you get to choose which groups you want to belong in . There is one for newcomers, book clubs, social clubs, such as dance meetups, dinnner and movie meetups, and convers every interest you can possibly imagine, from socials to things like the paranormal, UFO groups, ghost hunting, Angels, conspiracy theory groups, singles private home parties, etc. It really does cover anything and anybody can set up their own meetup. As I said, registration is free, and the cost for the meetups is generally non profit, and money that is paid (which can range from free, to 10.00 for meetup, and this money is generally used to cover the cost of maintaing the site, providing refreshments (if you are hosting the meetup), etc. It is a great place to start.
I would also consider calling welcome wagon because they will come to your home with a huge goodie bag of information, coupons, and will explain the area to you and everything you need to know.
Dating in Toronto is the same as anywhere else...you get your sane people and your psycho's, but like in any city, you have to be careful and get to know the person before you meet, and make sure you meet in a public place.
I have never lived in the East end, and cannot comment too much. You really can't go wrong and don't listen to what other say about people being rude, or unhelpful. It's possible that a person may have had a bad experience and is now stereotyping everyone. There are good and bad people all over the place, but in general, the majority of the people are very helpful.
I live in Vancouver now and do get homesick quite a bit, however, if you want warm weather, Vancouver and the lower mainland are great places (however, it does rain quite a bit, so it's a toss up if you would rather be shoveling snow , which can get quite heavy at times in Toronto, or deal with the rain. I spent an entire winter in Vancouver, and I think it snowed maybe 4 times in total, but it was very minor compared to Toronto, and it's the type of snow that melts right away. Toronto is very humid in the summer, so air conditioning is a must, whereas Vancouver , although can be very hot, you are near the Pacific Ocean and other bodies of water as well as the Mountains which deflect the humidity. Both Toronto and Vancouver are great if you like to skate or ski, and both are lovers of hockey, so be prepared to be a fan of their hockey teams if you want to fit in.
If it weren't for the fact that the weather is much better , and the cost of living , especially very high gas prices in Vancouver, I would live in Toronto. The only difference between the two are the stunning beauty of Vanouver or British Columbia in general (it really is like heaven on earth here), Ontario has some very beautiful places, but it can be very cold in the winter time, and honestly you can't beat the mountains, trees, and Ocean to a lake. I have always said if I could bring the weather, the mountains and Ocean to Toronto, I would never leave Toronto. Housing is much more expensive in Vancouver and all the areas surrounding it, for example, a condo purchased for 250,000 in Toronto would go for, depending on the area, anywhere between 350,000 to 500,000.00. Rent , I find is a bit more expensive in Vancouver than Toronto.
Ontario , in general holds the majority of the money in Canada and the services provided by the government are easier to access. Health care is cheaper in Toronto, and by cheaper I mean free. In Vancouver you stil have to pay a monthly fee for health care.
In all the cities I have lived in or visited, Toronto is probably my favorite because it was not until I started to live somewhere else, did I realize how good I had it in Toronto, compared to BC.
Cheers
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Moving to Toronto
