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This has exactly been my view of Toronto, a fairly large city in the same league of Philadelphia, Boston, DC and San Fran (to a less extend), which is pretty good, considering the entire Canada is smaller than California. But pretending Toronto is as interesting or significant as LA or Chicago, or even somehow imagine it is somehow superior to those two makes me laugh every time. We all know NYC is a different animal, maybe it is time to admit Chi/LA are too. Toronto won't be at what Chicago is in 20 years, not to mention a much larger Los Angeles.
DC and Boston are probably both underrated by most Canadians as NYC, SF, Miami, etc. steal most the spolight. Although both are smaller (~4.5m metro) than Toronto in population, they are both much wealthier and are fun towns with lots going on. But despite its power and influence, DC is too narrow in its focus (i.e. Government) to offer the range of what Toronto does as a city. And Boston, although it has many world class amenities, plays a regional center role in the US and Toronto has more of an international aspect being the capital city, so I will rank Toronto higher but not by a huge margin.
I agree that Toronto may be comparable in size to Philadephia but Toronto is more prominent due to its first city status so it is rated higher in my books. I admit that I don't know Philly well but Toronto is higher profile on the world stage and Philly has rep of being a quieter, less exciting East Coast city. Even a couple of classmates from Philly have told me anyone who wants to do anything with their life moves out of Philly to NYC, so with that stigma I dunno.
I see we differ with San Fran and that's fine, we are all entitled to our opinions. But my justification is that SF (Bay area) offers more than Toronto on many fronts: weather, scenery, outdoorsy stuff, wine country, architecture, liberal vibe, high tech, career opportunity, culinary etc. SF (Bay area) has also set so many trends that the world has followed it is not funny: hippies, computers, internet, facebook, iphones, organic foods, blue jeans, etc. IMO, I believe the influence of this region on the world has been so powerful, I have to keep them up there.
I really don't understand the hype of Chicago at all. I have tons of family in Chicago and visit quite often. I find it quintessentially mid-western, closet-conservative, and yes, very segregated. I've never been able to groove to the city whatsoever and never, really, look forward to going there. Race relations in the mid-west are, still, unfortunately terrible. Living in Toronto I think we take for granted how freely pedestrian we can be.
I totally agree, especially the closet-conservative observation, you are spot on.
DC and Boston are probably both underrated by most Canadians as NYC, SF, Miami, etc. steal most the spolight. Although both are smaller (~4.5m metro) than Toronto in population, they are both much wealthier and are fun towns with lots going on. But despite its power and influence, DC is too narrow in its focus (i.e. Government) to offer the range of what Toronto does as a city. And Boston, although it has many world class amenities, plays a regional center role in the US and Toronto has more of an international aspect being the capital city, so I will rank Toronto higher but not by a huge margin.
I agree that Toronto may be comparable in size to Philadelphia but Toronto is more prominent due to its first city status so it is rated higher in my books. I admit that I don't know Philly well but Toronto is higher profile on the world stage and Philly has rep of being a quieter, less exciting East Coast city. Even a couple of classmates from Philly have told me anyone who wants to do anything with their life moves out of Philly to NYC, so with that stigma I dunno.
Agree with the DC comment. I find it pretty boring. Except for a few areas such as Georgetown (the main street there looks exactly like Queen West in Toronto) and Dupont's Circle, it is awfully quiet.
I however still think Boston and Philadelphia are more important and well-known than Toronto. The fact that Toronto is the largest city of a small country is really irrelevant, or maybe only to Canadians with this "NYC in Canada" complex.
Both Boston and Philly, despite their smaller population, still have a larger economy. NYC might steal some glory from both of them, but we are talking about the biggest and strongest country in the world. It doesn't hurt that much. Not everyone is the NYC type of person.
In education, Harvard, MIT and UPenn also adds to their global recognition. UofT is no match for sure.
In terms of economy and jobs, Boston is the headquarter of several multinational consulting and law firms, and Philadelphia has quite a few biotech and pharmaceutical companies. Is Toronto particularly famous for any international companies? I don't recall any. Neither RIM nor Bombardier is based on TO. And all those banks have very little recognition outside Canada and limited American and S American cities.
in pop culture, I know many TV shows and movies with Boston/Philly as the setting, such as Boston Legal, Goodwill hunting, the Departed, Philadelphia, Rocky, 12 Monkey, sixth Sense. None in Toronto.
Philadelphia may be a less exciting city on the east coast, but Toronto for its size is pretty boring too to be honest. Too many dead quiet suburban areas. Still wins Philly though. But Boston is a different story. I myself find it more vibrant and energetic than Toronto. It looks much wealthier too.
IMO, these are Toronto's real peers in the US. It is very unfortunate that most posters here don't even consider them as equal peers and always talk about Chicago/LA or even NYC as if those are more comparable, which is why people like you and me feel the need to rain on their parade but end up being labeled "anti-Toronto" or even trolling somethings.
traditional French would respond to "Merci" with "Bienvenue"?
In what ways is this NOT an example of traditional French? Are you sure that this salutation is not mutually intelligible if not even used in France itself?
In what ways is this NOT an example of traditional French? Are you sure that this salutation is not mutually intelligible if not even used in France itself?
It is not something people in France would say and they find it funny or quirky when people from Quebec say this in response to "merci".
That said it is not uncommon for people who share a political space with speakers of another language to have borrowings like this.
For example, it is quite common for Swiss Germans to say "merci" instead of "danke".
And when I went to francophone Belgium for the first time I was surprised that waiters would say "s'il vous plaît, monsieur" when putting my plate or my drink on the table. No one says this in Quebec or in France.
Then I learned that in Flemish and Dutch they use the word for "please" (s'il vous plaît), which is alstublieft, when they give you something, much the same way the Germans use "bitte".
So francophone Belgians simply do this under the influence of their Flemish compatriots.
It is not something people in France would say and they find it funny or quirky when people from Quebec say this in response to "merci".
For example, it is quite common for Swiss Germans to say "merci" instead of "danke".
And when I went to francophone Belgium for the first time I was surprised that waiters would say "s'il vous plaît, monsieur" when putting my plate or my drink on the table. No one says this in Quebec or in France. .
Yet, the question still remains if "bienvenue" is a feature that has evolved within Quebec only or is a remnant of French inherited by French settlers. In France it is possible to respond with "souhait la bienvenue" when someone says "merci". It might not be colloquial, but it is formal. France has perhaps evolved passed responding with "bienvenue" but they would understand it through context. Quebec might have held onto this feature since the 16th century. Nonetheless, many Quebecers, from examples such as these would claim they speak a more traditional and formal French. European French people consider Quebecois French old-fashioned maintained by a peasant class. So where is real French truly spoken? The same argument can be made for Colombian Spanish, which is considered to have a more rigid grammatical structure than European Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese containing a much more extensive vocabulary than European Portuguese.
Side note, "merci" has fastened itself quite uniformly as the informal/official "thank you" in Farsi as opposed to the original "mamnoon".
Yet, the question still remains if "bienvenue" is a feature that has evolved within Quebec only or is a remnant of French inherited by French settlers. In France it is possible to respond with "souhait la bienvenue" when someone says "merci". It might not be colloquial, but it is formal. France has perhaps evolved passed responding with "bienvenue" but they would understand it through context. Quebec might have held onto this feature since the 16th century. Nonetheless, many Quebecers, from examples such as these would claim they speak a more traditional and formal French. European French people consider Quebecois French old-fashioned maintained by a peasant class. So where is real French truly spoken? The same argument can be made for Colombian Spanish, which is considered to have a more rigid grammatical structure than European Spanish and Brazilian Portuguese containing a much more extensive vocabulary than European Portuguese.
Side note, "merci" has fastened itself quite uniformly as the informal/official "thank you" in Farsi as opposed to the original "mamnoon".
I will happily stand corrected if someone has different info but I am pretty sure that merci followed by bienvenue as heard in Quebec comes from the English reply ''you're welcome''.
I will happily stand corrected if someone has different info but I am pretty sure that merci followed by bienvenue as heard in Quebec comes from the English reply ''you're welcome''.
According to the online Etymology dictionary, "you're welcome" in English as a formulaic response to "thank you" is attested from 1907. "Bienvenue" comes from Old French (the 9th - 14th century) to welcome a guest or arrival. In Old English, "Wilcuma" has the exact same meaning. Based on the evidence, "bienvenue" after "merci" could have been a rub-off from English usage in Quebec, but then why on earth has "bon fin de semaine" been preserved in Canada and "bon weekend", which is an English word widely used in France? I think both varieties are still too similar for there to be a considerable "lesser" form. In general, though, I think Quebec French is more adamant on preservation while European French is evolving more quickly with more informal influence from the English language.
Agree with the DC comment. I find it pretty boring. Except for a few areas such as Georgetown (the main street there looks exactly like Queen West in Toronto) and Dupont's Circle, it is awfully quiet.
I however still think Boston and Philadelphia are more important and well-known than Toronto. The fact that Toronto is the largest city of a small country is really irrelevant, or maybe only to Canadians with this "NYC in Canada" complex.
Both Boston and Philly, despite their smaller population, still have a larger economy. NYC might steal some glory from both of them, but we are talking about the biggest and strongest country in the world. It doesn't hurt that much. Not everyone is the NYC type of person.
In education, Harvard, MIT and UPenn also adds to their global recognition. UofT is no match for sure.
In terms of economy and jobs, Boston is the headquarter of several multinational consulting and law firms, and Philadelphia has quite a few biotech and pharmaceutical companies. Is Toronto particularly famous for any international companies? I don't recall any. Neither RIM nor Bombardier is based on TO. And all those banks have very little recognition outside Canada and limited American and S American cities.
in pop culture, I know many TV shows and movies with Boston/Philly as the setting, such as Boston Legal, Goodwill hunting, the Departed, Philadelphia, Rocky, 12 Monkey, sixth Sense. None in Toronto.
Philadelphia may be a less exciting city on the east coast, but Toronto for its size is pretty boring too to be honest. Too many dead quiet suburban areas. Still wins Philly though. But Boston is a different story. I myself find it more vibrant and energetic than Toronto. It looks much wealthier too.
IMO, these are Toronto's real peers in the US. It is very unfortunate that most posters here don't even consider them as equal peers and always talk about Chicago/LA or even NYC as if those are more comparable, which is why people like you and me feel the need to rain on their parade but end up being labeled "anti-Toronto" or even trolling somethings.
There's more life in DC than you think. My sister is in law school in Georgetown so I will get out there and learn more about the city but aside from GT and Dupont; Adams Morgan, Penn Quarter, and Foggy Bottom all get crowds. Not as good nightlife as Toronto but it's not a dead city by any means - tonnes of young professionals from around the world there.
I agree that Boston is lively and offers a lot, particularly in terms of Economy, Architecture, History, Amenities, Education, Culture, Healthcare and a bunch of other industries that require high IQ. But the culture still feels very regional as opposed to International -- unlike a NYC, Toronto, Chicago or even DC. Being a first city of Canada does create a relative importance and does connote a higher profile, even if Canada is small. Even though they are not globally competitive, Toronto does have the most Corporate HQs and institutions (e.g. stock market, sports) in the country and this creates a certain relevance or influence that is hard to unseat as a regional city. Some can like Chicago or LA but not sure if Boston has enough to put it over thus I give the edge to Toronto. I understand your point though. And I have few takers here locally when I argue that Toronto can be more significant than Boston as a city. US media (i.e. Hollywood) will always make films about US cities so Boston and Philly get more recognition from this perspective as well but most informed people in the world would, again, perceive Toronto as more significant than Boston or Philly because it is a capital city of Canada, whereas Boston & Philly are lower down the list in the US.
I also don't think it's fair to label Toronto as a boring city. What North American cities would you call exciting? I find Toronto is similar to other big North American cities in terms of activities, nightlife and happenings. NYC, LA, MIA and MTL seem like more fun if one wants a nightlife driven-lifestyle. But cities like Tor, Chic, Bos, DC, SF, Atl are still fun and have lots to do. Less exciting or what I would call boring cities are Van, Calgary, Ottawa, Minnesota, Cinnci, St. Louis, Charlotte, Denver, and Seattle.
And as far as I'm concerned, I've never made an "anti-Toronto" comment on these boards ever. I'd love for the accuser to show me where I ever did that. All I ever do is express my honest opinion. The provincial attitude by some (not all) on these boards is similar to the ignorant and overly sensitive views that many Americans hold about Canada that I deal with regularly. Same types of people. I'm used to it.
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