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Many of my Italian relatives immigrated to Toronto from 1895 to 1912, and lived on Dundas, Clinton, Bellwoods, or Manning Ave.
Clinton Street! Home of one of the best pizzerias in Toronto--Bitondo's. Best pizza in all of the GTA, and the panzerotti--holy hannah, they are worth the clogged arteries. I've been to Bitondo's on Clinton Street many times, and it is worth a visit. Thanks for reminding me about Clinton Street and Bitondo's!
Clinton Street! Home of one of the best pizzerias in Toronto--Bitondo's. Best pizza in all of the GTA, and the panzerotti--holy hannah, they are worth the clogged arteries. I've been to Bitondo's on Clinton Street many times, and it is worth a visit. Thanks for reminding me about Clinton Street and Bitondo's!
I was born in Toronto, grew up in Philadelphia, and lived most of my life in Los Angeles. All 3 of "my" cities have great pizza. Still have fond memories as a kid of attending Leafs games at Maple Leaf Gardens on Carlton, in the 1960's. My uncle had 2 season tickets, and he would give them to my brother, and me when we were visiting Toronto. Most of the fans had suits on, and my brother and I were probably the youngest people there. Sporting events were not the family type of events they are today. I am probably related to half of the Italians buried at Mount Hope Cemetery. Hate cold weather, but love Toronto!
When did most of the Italians in Toronto arrive? Like when they went to America? Or a bit later, like post WWII?
Here a lot of Italians still strongly identify as Italian, even if many don't speak much or any Italian. You'll hear some talk about 'wogs and Aussies/skips'. I can't imagine Italian Americans talking about 'Italians' as opposed to 'Americans'. I mean Italian Australians still consider themselves Australian, of course, but many will make a big deal about how Italian they are. Whereas Anglo-Celtic Australians with English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish ancestry often say they're 'just Australian.' Whereas other groups are hyphenated Australians. In the US I feel immigrants integrate more (not that a lot don't here, but it feels more international). I think the fact Australia is 24% born overseas, Canada 17% and the US 12% has something to do with this discrepancy.
My Italian family arrived in Toronto from 1895 until 1912. In fact my grandmother on my mother's side was born in Toronto in a house on Division Street, which is no longer there. The street later became part of the University of Toronto. There was a second and third wave of Italian immigrants that came after WW1 and WW2. Basically this first and second wave of Italians are immersed into Canadian culture, and a lot of them today wouldn't even look like, the stereotypical Southern Italian look. I am 70 yrs old, 100% Southern Italian, and do not speak Italian. There are 500k people of Italian descent in Greater Toronto, far more than there was ever in Montreal. My father graduated from The University of Toronto in 1952, worked for Canada Packers awhile, and then we moved to Philadelphia for a better job opportunity. Now Italians in Philly were a lot more boisterous about being Italian. Sort of like comparing the laid back fans at Maple Leaf Gardens in the 1970's, to the absolute crazy fans at the old Philly Spectrum! I live in LA now, still consider my 3 cities as Toronto, Philly, and Los Angeles.
Look, the OP posted a few times six years ago and has not since then. Not sure the connection with Italian culture in Australia.
DH was born in Italy and migrated with his family post WW2 when he was a child. Yes, his parents did always consider themselves as much Italian as Aussie but that generation is very quickly dying out as they move into their eighties and nineties. Their children, who are often in their seventies now, have a loose connection with their Italian heritage but generally only speak a little of the language and often dialect.
They have often travelled to Italy, as Aussies in general are very keen travellers. They generally still enjoy Italian food, as do most of the country. But the traditional Italian areas are disappearing, becoming increasingly Asian. As are some of the families; the last family wedding we attended was one between an Australian of Italian heritage and an Australian of Cambodian heritage.
Yes, some Italians do like to make jokes about wogs and especially woggy houses. It is a bit of ironic humour as they know people without the Italian or similar heritage would be in all sorts of trouble if they did the same.
There is little Italian taught in the country and it is really difficult for language schools to find teachers of Italian. I actually study it as a hobby but even in Sydney the opportunities to learn and especially practise the language are increasingly limited. (DH rarely speaks it anywhere these days and has no interest in doing so)
Look, the OP posted a few times six years ago and has not since then. Not sure the connection with Italian culture in Australia.
DH was born in Italy and migrated with his family post WW2 when he was a child. Yes, his parents did always consider themselves as much Italian as Aussie but that generation is very quickly dying out as they move into their eighties and nineties. Their children, who are often in their seventies now, have a loose connection with their Italian heritage but generally only speak a little of the language and often dialect.
They have often travelled to Italy, as Aussies in general are very keen travellers. They generally still enjoy Italian food, as do most of the country. But the traditional Italian areas are disappearing, becoming increasingly Asian. As are some of the families; the last family wedding we attended was one between an Australian of Italian heritage and an Australian of Cambodian heritage.
Yes, some Italians do like to make jokes about wogs and especially woggy houses. It is a bit of ironic humour as they know people without the Italian or similar heritage would be in all sorts of trouble if they did the same.
There is little Italian taught in the country and it is really difficult for language schools to find teachers of Italian. I actually study it as a hobby but even in Sydney the opportunities to learn and especially practise the language are increasingly limited. (DH rarely speaks it anywhere these days and has no interest in doing so)
Always enjoy your posts MarisaMay. My family immigrated from Calabria to Toronto in 1895, at that time Australia was not an option for Italians, and definitely not Southern Italians. That is why Greater Toronto has more people of Italian descent (500k) than the entire country of Australia. I think Melbourne has 100k in Italians. Now my ancestors put up with prejudice in Toronto, a town dominated by English and Scots. My relatives in Toronto today are proud Canadians, and identify less with being Italian. I was born in Toronto, but grew up in Philadelphia, a city dominated by Irish and Italians. Toronto being more Protestant and Philly more Catholic. I live in Los Angeles, and have dual citizenship, but consider myself more American. I love Toronto and Philly with all my heart, but having Mediterranean blood, will not go through the long brutal winters.
Always enjoy your posts MarisaMay. My family immigrated from Calabria to Toronto in 1895, at that time Australia was not an option for Italians, and definitely not Southern Italians. That is why Greater Toronto has more people of Italian descent (500k) than the entire country of Australia. I think Melbourne has 100k in Italians. Now my ancestors put up with prejudice in Toronto, a town dominated by English and Scots. My relatives in Toronto today are proud Canadians, and identify less with being Italian. I was born in Toronto, but grew up in Philadelphia, a city dominated by Irish and Italians. Toronto being more Protestant and Philly more Catholic. I live in Los Angeles, and have dual citizenship, but consider myself more American. I love Toronto and Philly with all my heart, but having Mediterranean blood, will not go through the long brutal winters.
I am not sure if by "at that time Australia was not an option for Italians, and definitely not Southern Italians" you are referring to immigration policy? Even the first fleet in 1788 had some Italians in it.
The immigration restriction act of 1901, was more a keep Asians out policy. It provided dictation tests in any European language the authorities thought applicable at the time. As Australia was mostly vast an uninhabited place at the time (Still is, however was far more so in 1901), it really depended upon the "Flavor of the Month" at the port you docked at.
Western Australia was pretty much the only place that banned Italians, most other ports just gave Italian immigrants a dictation test in Italian. Though it was really only after the 1924 immigration restriction act was introduced in the USA, that Italians start looking at Australia as an alternative in mass, and by that time the 1901 immigration restriction act had been watered down somewhat.
There is about 300,000 people of Italian heritage in Melbourne, and about 1.1 million across the country. A Canadian is a bit more likely to be of Italian Heritage than an Australian its about 4.3% in Australia vs 4.6% in Canada.
Last edited by danielsa1775; 06-14-2021 at 04:35 PM..
I am not sure if by "at that time Australia was not an option for Italians, and definitely not Southern Italians" you are referring to immigration policy? Even the first fleet in 1788 had some Italians in it.
The immigration restriction act of 1901, was more a keep Asians out policy. It provided dictation tests in any European language the authorities thought applicable at the time. As Australia was mostly vast an uninhabited place at the time (Still is, however was far more so in 1901), it really depended upon the "Flavor of the Month" at the port you docked at.
Western Australia was pretty much the only place that banned Italians, most other ports just gave Italian immigrants a dictation test in Italian. Though it was really only after the 1924 immigration restriction act was introduced in the USA, that Italians start looking at Australia as an alternative in mass, and by that time the 1901 immigration restriction act had been watered down somewhat.
There is about 300,000 people of Italian heritage in Melbourne, and about 1.1 million across the country. A Canadian is a bit more likely to be of Italian Heritage than an Australian its about 4.3% in Australia vs 4.6% in Canada.
I'm not going to dispute what you are saying, but everything I have read Australia was a little more restrictive than what you are claiming. My ancestors were dirt poor farmers in Calabria Italy, and spoke very little English. I doubt very much that they would have been allowed to immigrate to Australia in 1895. I am 70 years old, and 100% Southern Italian, and 3 of my grandparents were born in Toronto, the other one in Italy. I doubt there are any Southern Italian Aussies in that position. According to Wikipedia, Toronto has 511,680 and Melbourne 279,112, by Italian ancestry. Now I think the Italian population in Toronto is a little understated, because of mixed marriages, there are probably hundreds of thousands more with some Italian blood. Toronto basically has a 50 year head start over Melbourne. Although I actually heard more Italian spoken in Melbourne, than you would hear in Toronto today, because Melbourne has more recent arrivals.
I'm not going to dispute what you are saying, but everything I have read Australia was a little more restrictive than what you are claiming. My ancestors were dirt poor farmers in Calabria Italy, and spoke very little English. I doubt very much that they would have been allowed to immigrate to Australia in 1895. I am 70 years old, and 100% Southern Italian, and 3 of my grandparents were born in Toronto, the other one in Italy. I doubt there are any Southern Italian Aussies in that position. According to Wikipedia, Toronto has 511,680 and Melbourne 279,112, by Italian ancestry. Now I think the Italian population in Toronto is a little understated, because of mixed marriages, there are probably hundreds of thousands more with some Italian blood. Toronto basically has a 50 year head start over Melbourne. Although I actually heard more Italian spoken in Melbourne, than you would hear in Toronto today, because Melbourne has more recent arrivals.
In 1895 Australia did not exist,. It was basically six separate countries, with virtually no immigration polices at all.
The 279,112 is 10 years old (2011) it was 300,114 at the last census (2016), I can guarantee you that the Italian population in Melbourne is understated for exactly the same reason. My kids for instance have 3 different ancestries (UK, German and Korean) going back 2 generations, I just mark them as "Australian" in the census, its a common phenomenon.
South Australia’s climate(s) are more similar to southern Italy than anyplace in Canada and the United States, except for California.
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